www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Vote: "Christians of the true faith" or "orthodox Christians"?

Another non-scientific poll. This question is for Byzantine/Greek Catholic participants here.

What, in your view, is the better translation: "Christians of the true faith" or "orthodox Christians"?

Vote: "Christians of the true faith" or "orthodox Christians"? single choice

The preferred translation is "Christians of the true faith." (15%, 9 Votes)

The preferred translation is "orthodox Christians." (75%, 44 Votes)

No opinion. (10%, 6 Votes)

Total Votes: 59 Voting on this poll ends: 03/26/06 05:52 AM

Actually, I think "Orthodox" in that context should properly be capitalized.

Incognitus

You're probably correct but for the purposes of this poll please vote for "orthodox" even if you think it should be "Orthodox" or "0rthodox."

How about, "all orthodox Christians of the true faith".
Stephanos I

Dear Stephanos - what would be an orthodox Christian of an untrue faith?

Incognitus

Dear Nec Aliter - that's exactly how I voted.

Dear Incognitus,

An "orthodox Heterodox?" (As opposed to those Heterodox who break with their own heretical traditions . . .)

Alex

I once heard a conflated "all Orthodox and Catholic Christians of the true faith." Seemed a bit odd when "all you orthodox Christians" would suffice to include both.

Come to think of it, back when I was an undergrad the rule was that students under the age of - 21, I guess - had to live in university-approved housing unless they could obtain special permission to live somewhere else. When I asked just how one might obtain such permission, one suggestion was "tell them you are an orthodox anything, and that you are required by the teachings of whatever that may be that you must comply with dietary regulations which cannot be satisfied in university-approved housing!"

Now that is why, for our purpose, "Orthodox" should be capitalized!

Incognitus

This is just an excuse to get this poll in a more visible spot, so that those who have not yet voted may do so.

Incognitus

I am in favor of reverting to the correct terminology, but has anyone performed a study as to what will happen to the RC parishioners and those of the original BC church that have endured latinizations all their life, and now will have to face the dreaded "O" word?

How will/can we pastorally care for them? To some, it will truly seem to be a betrayal of faith.

In Christ,

Michael

It's a transition that both the Ukrainian and Melkite Catholics have both already undergone. They both use "orthodox" in their English translations of the Liturgy and have done so for a long time already.

Since I believe that all 'true' Christians have an element of Christianity, (with the exclusion of those Christian faiths, or rather the parts of that faith that have fallen away...such as many of the mainstream Protestants), I would rename the Church to:

Church That Contains the Totality towards One's Spiritual Growth.

Too long isn't it?

Zenovia

Lost & Found said "How will/can we pastorally care for them? To some, it will truly seem to be a betrayal of faith."

But isn't the deletion of Orthodox Christians the true betrayal of Faith. Perhaps the deletion of Orthodox Christians isn't as big of a betrayal of Faith as inclusive language, the deletion of Litanies, the suppression of Minor Orders, etc. But it is a betrayal of Faith. Afterall, by definition if you aren't Orthodox, you are wrong.

Dear Nec Aliter,

Does the UGCC have an English liturgy?! I'm always the last to find out about these things . . .

The reason the "o" is small in the UGCC "orthodox" is because of the fear that if "O" is used, many Ukrainian Catholics will get the idea in their head that they are "Orthodox" after all and will start to read dangerous books - like those published by the Melkites, for example.

The next thing our people will want is to commemorate the Pope only ONCE (would you believe the nerve?) during the entire Divine Liturgy!

And then (May heaven forbid this!) they will push to recite the Creed without the Filioque . . . and then start to pay attention to the Epiclesis during the Liturgy.

Once this happens, the floodgates of Easternization will be open and next they will doubtless want to have all THREE antiphons in place with NO KNEELING on Sundays!

Pretty soon things will really go downhill with their desire to bring in Akathists and Molebens in place of the Stations and Eucharistic Adoration and Mercy Chaplets!

Make no doubt about it, those upstarts will want to tell their hierarchs they want LONGER services . . . and that they should start to grow beards . . .

Well, if THAT is what you want, then, by all means, use "Orthodox."

But just don't say you haven't been warned!

Alex

What! All they have to do is get rid of the blasted pews and THEN they will be on the slippery slope heading east. All the strange stuff will follow the pews out the door. Like the rats after the piper.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Pavel,

Will you then be the Pied Piper of Perth for us?

Michael

Dear InCogNeat3's,

You are correct, IMHO, however, we have many members that refuse and refute anything to do with the "O" word, and this does include clergy. That is where the issue stems.

When I asked in another topic area what is the benefit of being a sui iuris of Rome, I did not receive any answers that I felt dealt with our unique situation. I do know that many cradle Byzcaths have defended their Catholicism to the point of forgoing (or possibly forgetting?) their Orthodox heritage. I applaud the loyalty, but not necessarily the end effect, yet I believe I may have done the same, if I wore those same shoes from birth onwards.

So, I ask again, what type of pastoral care should be provided for our loving members of the faith community that have endured years and years of hardship and the need to defend this wonderful Church as Catholic, if we are to restore "Orthodox Christians"? I do feel this will be a major issue.

In Christ,

Michael

The most important pastoral care for any of the Greek-Catholic faithful who might feel slighted or grieved by the liturgical use of the term "Orthodox" is a pastoral letter from the hierarchs explaining this term and the reasons for its use - and, of course, stating plainly and clearly that we have not the slightest intention of breaking our ties with the Catholic Church. Here the excellent phrase of Pope John Paul II "Orthodox in Faith and Catholic in love" will be of great help.

There are some other things which might be considered, but that is the most important and will do for a starter.

Incognitus

The shame is that this should have happened years ago. How long since Vatican II was closed? What have the bishops been doing for all those years?

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Incognitus,

You always seem to provide the right answers!

Thank you.

Michael

Being taught to take great pride in being Orthodox would also help. Constantly reminding ourselves that we don't have to do what everyone elso does. If another Church changes Calendars that doesn't mean the Byzantine Catholics should, if another Church lessens or eliminates fasting requirements that doesn't mean the Byzantine Catholic Church should, if another Church has the Rosary before Their Liturgy that doesn't mean the Byzantine Catholic Church should, if the Priest of a Byzantine Catholic Parish has witnessed a Greek Orthodox Church have only a Priest, a Deacon, and a visiting Roman Catholic Priest show up for Orthros (Matins)that doesn't mean that the members of a Byzantine Catholic Church wouldn't or couldn't be taught to love Matins and joyfully attend and participate etc. Basically, resoring the term Orthodox would mean work and succesfully and Cahritably confronting others with regard to Religious matters in order to help the rebuked attain Salvation. It has been my experience that Priests are too coward to tell parishioners how to dress in Church, to keep Fasts, perhaps even for Parish Trustees to not be Free masons

Incognitus, you're right on the mark. Too many people do not understand what the true meaning is of the word "orthodox." It carries a certain stigma.

The Ukrainians have made peace with the word, and use 'orthodox christians' in their Divine Liturgy. I believe it truly is an education moment.

Most people don't realize that in the old Latin text of the Roman Catholic Mass, the people prayed "pro orthoxis fidelibus," for "Orthodox Christians," meaning the faithful who professed the accurate teaching of the faith.

It is the difference between describing our Faith and not just the Church.

As Pope John Paul II stated so eloquently, we are "Orthodox in Faith, and Catholic in the bonds of love."

Always, IMHO
Cathy

It's nice to be appreciated; please accept my thanks!

Incognitus

So, for those that voted, we have a majority view.

Will this be read by those who can make a difference? How can we bring this to the attention of current staff providing a revised translation of the Divine Liturgy?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Michael

Honestly--since it seems that the new translation was received back from Rome (a while ago) with the OK after the corrections that they deemed necessary, I doubt that it would be sent back to Rome again for OK for the change in just one word.

My $.02

John K

And you really think that anyone in authority listens to us? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ROFL

The poll is unscientific. Still, I think it should be given some weight as this appears to be the only internet forum used by Byzantine Catholics.

What I think would count more is to write your Bishop politely expressing your thoughts on the matter. Perhaps one solution would be to allow parishes the option to use "orthodox" instead of "true faith."

A 75% majority seems respectable. If anyone disagrees let him, her or them organize a scientific poll taken professionally.

Incognitus

Dear Friends,

Can we now have a discussion on what would be meant by using "Orthodoxy" with a capital "O" as opposed by "orthodoxy?"

And does not "Orthodoxy" mean BOTH "right believing" AND "right worshipping" and to use "of the true faith" would be a mistranslation of epic proportions?

We can vote on this all we want - but it should be an informed vote, no?

Alex

Dear Alex,
Well, "orthodox" in its uncapitalized form can apply to almost anything - my doctor (a practicing Catholic) has no use for what is sometimes called "alternative medicine" and when the topic comes up he will state firmly that he is an adherent and practitioner of "orthodox medicine". One can - if one cares to be bothered - discuss at great length the question of whether Mao Tse-Tung was an "orthodox Marxist" or a Hegelian. On the religious front, it is possible to describe someone as an "orthodox Biblicist", without thereby indicating his denominational affiliation, if any.

In capitalized form "Orthodox" is either a proper noun or a proper adjective, depending on the context. Thus, for instance, we may say that "Saint Theodore the Studite is a crucial figure in the development of Orthodox monasticism".

It is in this latter sense that the Greek-Catholic Churches normally use the term "Orthodox" (cf., for example, the letter of approbation from Patriarch Maximos V for the publication of Byzantine Daily Worship.)

Saint Peter Mohyla liked to use the form "Catholic-Orthodox" or "Orthodox-Catholic", and some Greek-Catholic communities also like to use that form.

Note that the rules of capitalization differ from one language to another.

As to the euphemisms, since the liturgical texts, particularly in Greek, often use the phrase "faithful Orthodox Christians", the euphemisms could put such silly expressions as "faithful faithful Christians" or "faithful Christians of the true faith" into our mouths. That might do for Steinbeck, who in one of his novels refers to the Christian Christian political party in France, but it will not do for serious purposes!

Incognitus

Thanks, Incognitus for the background. It would be interesting to see what a scientific poll would come up with on this.

For those of us who favor the traditional phrasing, what can we do to encourage its revival?

Well, that depends. Clergy can simply use the correct term. Lay people might try, first, mobilizing support on the parish level, second, writing numerous letters (all of them courteously worded) to the bishops (note the plural) and third, writing similar letters to the relevant people in Rome. The more letters the better - the letters may not always be read, but they will always be counted!

Incognitus

At the Ukrainian Liturgy I attended yesterday in St. Louis the wording was "orthodox Christians." The missal was the 1988 Millennial Missal from the UGCC.

Well if the Orthodox have anything to say about it , it should have to be the longest, most descriptive term, AND liturgically speaking.. , you should have to take a second breath. Ahhh, let's see now. Let's try, "an Orthodox True beleiver of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic faith once delivered to the Saints of Light thru the Grace of God by the Holy Spirit". Of course this sounds to me like the Presbyterian minister who I talked to a year or so ago, who was in association with the 'Orthodox' Presbyterian sect. When I asked him of their theology of the Blessed Virgin, he said something to the effect of having no such thing. To which I asked where they had the audacity to use the very word "orthodox' in relation to their schismatic Prot theology. To which he justified it as 'orthodox' protestanism, of the Calvinistic kind. Whoa , boy, no that is some confusion. Translated, it would be..." 'orthodox' heterodoxy of the anti-catholic theology of the Reform branch of the Protestant 'wing' of the Western church of the universal church of Christ"...! IS that enough confusion for one night. Oh, yeah, and what was the name for the 'Author of Confusion'..? Is it not the same spiritual wolf who seeks those whom he can devour..? Some punning here, some truth, figure it out yerself, mik +

One can easily find references to "orthodox Calvinism" and "orthodox Lutheranism". In neither case does the adjective "orthodox" refer to Orthodoxy as most of us who take part in discussions here would understand the word. That's why the capitalization makes a difference.

Incognitus

It is even used in cricket to decribe some bowling actions. Mind you in this country it is not unusual to hear Orthodox and Eastern rite Priests exchanging cricket scores in due season .

ICXC
NIKA

I believe you. The one issue that will bring even many priests to the point of serious anger is the hint that one should eliminate or make scarce the pews. When one gets this reaction one knows one has come to the truth.

The truth hurts but it sets one free.

CDL

Dear Incognitus,

In the U.S., there are "Orthodox Presbyterian" parishes . . .

Friends of mine who saw this e-mailed me to ask if this was a "Presbyterian rite" of Orthodoxy!

There actually was an attempt at developing an "Eastern Rite Presbyterianism" in western Canada to convert Ukrainians in the 30's.

They developed an iconostasis - but with no icons . . .

Yech . . .
Alex

Actually the Eastern-Rite Presbyterians developed about 20 years before that - I once went through their service-book and hymnal, both of which are hilarious. To this day the United Church of Canada is quite touchy about the whole affair - as well they might be.

The last parish of this bizarre combination finally joined the Ukrainian Greek Orthodox Church of Canada about 45 years ago.

More information can be found in John Bodrug's memoirs. I've been told that Vivian Oleandar has done or plans to do a book about it, but I'm not really in touch.

Incognitus

Oddly enough our priest was an Orthodox Presbyterian before he converted. He actually converted while attending a Reformed Seminary. The joke is of course that he was predestined to be Orthodox.

My Mother�s family and my maternal Grandmother were Presbyterian�s, although of the less rigorous variety. The popular drink on my Mom�s side was something they called the 7 and 7 (basically Seven Up and Seagram�s Seven), but the same drink is also known as the �Presbyterian�. To make an �Orthodox Presbyterian� you simply substitute Vodka (potato or rye, doesn�t matter) for the Whiskey (or Whisky to a Canadian).

Andrew

Dear Friends,

I also had an Anglican Book of Common Prayer . . . translated into Ukrainian . . .

A number of Western Rites that either did become Orthodox or BELIEVED they had ( ) kept their church name but added "Orthodox" to it i.e. "Orthodox Old Catholics" "Orthodox Greek Catholic" and even "Orthodox Anglicans" etc.

Alex

Some info that was given to me by a Prot pastor, was that in his denomination he was counciled that as a young new pastor, he ought to join the Lodge (freemasonry). From him I learned, (he was very forthright and by this time middle age) the extent of the infiltration of the freemasons in Protestantism, esp amoung the Presbyterians...since they started in Scotland. And one of the 'branches' of them is the so-called 'Scottish Rite', the other is the 'York Rite'. There is much, unabashed literature at Gettysburg Battlefield on the Masons and the American Civil War. Some have even speculated that the war was really a scirmish between the two for control of us or a. Note here, that I do not have hard info, but if one was inclined to..! Just some thoughts, mik

I voted for Pyrohy of the True Faith, or just plain Byzantine Pierogies.

"I voted for Pyrohy of the True Faith, or just plain Byzantine Pierogies."

Is Outrage! In Holy Russia we always had exclusively ORTHODOX PYROHY. On Old Calendar, of course.

Incognitus