www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall RE: Removing threads part II...

OK, strike the jazz band. But I think the example still holds and holds well.

Let�s take a different example, djs. You are probably of an age where, if you were at a parish meeting in a Pennsylvania, New Jersey or Ohio parish and the priest tapped you on the shoulder and whispered, �After I get everyone�s attention start �Dostonjo Jest��, you would be able to sing it without reference to any words or music. Most of the people would also be able to sing it without reference to any words or music. Why is this? It is because you have sung it that way all your life. Now imagine that someone comes along and says �Some of the Slavonic words were wrong and we fixed them. Oh, and we are no longer using samohlasen 6 so here is a new Slavonic setting for the real prostopinije melody for �Dostonjo Jest�. You might be very willing to change the way you have sung something all your life but I can guarantee you that the vast majority of your fellow parishioners are going to object to such a change. Now, re-evaluate this with the consideration that (in many parishes) we have been singing the English language texts and settings for nearly 40 years. Do you really think that the people are going to embrace changes in texts, liturgical rubrics and music when they see absolutely no need for such changes? See my point? At one level it really does not matter what the change is. Any change to the Liturgy (text and rubrics) or music directly affects each individual�s personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If it is to be accomplished at all it must be done so with great gentleness over a very long period of time.

OK, here�s another example, this one from the Roman Catholics. In the 1960�s the Latin Church updated its text for the �Hail Mary� from Elizabethan English to American English. The text went from ��the Lord is with Thee, blessed art Thou amongst women�.� to ��the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women�.� How many Roman Catholics over 40 do you know that do not automatically say the Elizabethan English version of this prayer? Why have they not embraced the new translation by now? People simply do not like to give up something they are comfortable with during a lifetime. They do so only when convinced that is absolutely necessary.

Regarding a six month test period, one first has to get to the point where the majority of our people, cantors and clergy have bought into the need for radical change to the Liturgy. Since the clergy, priests and people were not involved in the process of determining: 1) the need for reform, 2) the goals of the reform (should we be loyal to our tradition or revise it) and 3) the specifics of the reform, it is highly unlikely that they will embrace it with enthusiasm.

It is my sincere prayer that the bishops decide not to promulgate the new Liturgy. To do so will cause much consternation in our Church and we will loose people over it. I would like to see the bishops direct the liturgical commissions to revisit their work (I do admire all the hard work they have done even if I don�t agree with it) to prepare texts that are very exacting to the official Ruthenian liturgical books published at Rome. English texts and musical settings which are now so well known should not be fiddled with unless absolutely necessary.

Admin

If you are referring to a suggested six-month period from the "Liturgical Reform Responsibility" thread, that was actually a six month period to review and comment on the texts before any parish promulgation to obtain at least a minimal idea of the sensus fidelium.

Many who either went through or saw the various experimentations in the Roman Rite in the 1970s probably would not appreciate being liturgical guinea pigs.

We have sainted hierarchs like Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky and Bishop Theodore Romzha who made the Ordo and those service books their lives' work. Perhaps we should focus more on implementing what is already in the books.

OK, here�s another example, this one from the Roman Catholics. In the 1960�s the Latin Church updated its text for the �Hail Mary� from Elizabethan English to American English. The text went from ��the Lord is with Thee, blessed art Thou amongst women�.� to ��the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women�.� How many Roman Catholics over 40 do you know that do not automatically say the Elizabethan English version of this prayer? Why have they not embraced the new translation by now? People simply do not like to give up something they are comfortable with during a lifetime. They do so only when convinced that is absolutely necessary.


mmmmmmmmmmmmm, I learned the Elizabethan version of the Ave Maria from old movies I saw on TV. Ironic, Queen Elizabeth was an Anglican. I still say it that way (adding Theotokos) when I do evening prayer before an Icon of the Theotokos.
Much Love,
Jonn

OK, here�s another example, this one from the Roman Catholics. In the 1960�s the Latin Church updated its text for the �Hail Mary� from Elizabethan English to American English. The text went from ��the Lord is with Thee, blessed art Thou amongst women�.� to ��the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women�.� How many Roman Catholics over 40 do you know that do not automatically say the Elizabethan English version of this prayer? Why have they not embraced the new translation by now? People simply do not like to give up something they are comfortable with during a lifetime. They do so only when convinced that is absolutely necessary.


mmmmmmmmmmmmm, I learned the Elizabethan version of the Ave Maria from old movies I saw on TV. Ironic, Queen Elizabeth was an Anglican. I still say it that way (adding Theotokos) when I do evening prayer before an Icon of the Theotokos.
Much Love,
Jonn

Anyone who seriously believes that the sort of revamping of "Silent Night" that the Administrator described cannot be found in actual practice is blessed with enviable naivete. Those of us who must live in the cold, cruel world are glad to know that somewhere such a small island still holds out.

Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor

UC:

Reading between the lines of your post, ISTM, that you are may feel that the gray book represented a departure from "good" prostopinije. I would agree. And that is why we need a scholarly re-do the chant settings of our texts to achieve better fidelity to the prostopinie tradition. That, from what I have seen at the MCI webpage is just what is being done.

There are things at the MCI site that I will quibble with, and some real surprises owing to some local variations that are familiar to me.
But what is emerging is highly faithful to the tradition.

Btw, I am also familiar with some of the first English settings; I have English troparia, 0 kontakia, etc. from the early sixities. These settings, ISTM, were undertaken with a view of keeping the music line of the OS and adjusting the words to fit. They also were characterized by a more sophisticated English vocabulary and style.

The first characteristic I think most people would find unacceptable, at least in the long run (even if OK in getting started; at least they didn't insert dummy syllables as occurred in transitioning from Greek to OS). As to the reduction in language level, I think it is a mistake. Better to have elegant language that we aspire to, than bland, pedestrian language. But elementary school level seems to be the trend, essentially universally. Sadly, I don't think that much can be done about that.

Not the point. The description was not used merely to indicate that such revamping does occurs, but to characterize what is happening in music from the MCI. That characteriztion is not a serious one. I am glad to see it retracted.

Just an aside for those reading this thread for the first time: the topic "Liturgical Reform Responsibilities" is also still active, and can be found in the "Faith & Worship" forum.

djs,

Can you please go back and read what I actually wrote? If you do I'm sure you will see the point that Incognitus has grasped.

In my earlier post I spoke specifically to the proposed revisions to the texts and rubrics of the Divine Liturgy. I spoke only generally to anything relating to music. I was very clear that the issue was one should not �fiddle with the way someone has prayed all his or her life (and the Church for a millennium)� and not any specific element of change. The issue here is change and the need for it. I have never commented about the work of any musical setting.

The �Silent Night� analogy is very accurate. There is nothing for me to retract and I have not retracted anything. I only withdrew the �jazz band back up� from the analogy because you objected and I was trying to accommodate you. Again, it does not matter whether the change is good or bad. It is change. Change must be proved to be necessary before one can expect anyone to embrace it.

Might I suggest that if you are confused about something others have written you ask them to explain it further before attacking it?

Admin

Dear Friends,

After seeing a number of threads here on liturgical matters, I now know that "rubrics" is a diminutive of "rude-bricks!"

Alex

Of course, resistance to change is pretty common, whether there is a good reason for the change or not. There have been many incidents for and against the restoration of infant communion, removal of the filioque from the Creed, etc.

If there are major changes in the proposed liturgies, it would be nice to know what they actually are. It's hard to judge the value of a change when a toe to toe comparison is not made available.

Dear Administrator:

Sorry if I missed your point. It had appeared from what you actually wrote that you were attempting to give voice to the complaints of UC, who inititated the thread with a suggestion that the MCI is not teaching real prostopinije. In that context the now withdrawn jazz band silent night image was particularly unfortunate. I am glad that you have clarified your position.

I know next to nothing of the MCI, and I have no semblance of qualifications to judge what is and what is not "real prostopinije" - that is a quicksand issue which I prefer to avoid.

My reason for contributing to the discussion by strengthening the bit about "Silent Night" (a piece which - O, the Heresy - I don't care for myself) is that, as we all know, the cultural and pseudo-cultural influences in the world around us, and particularly in the Roman Church, do have a strong influence on ourselves, so it behooves us to be on the watch for them.

Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor