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From B-net:

Evangelical Students Puzzled by Georgetown Ban

By Kat Glass
Religion News Service

WASHINGTON -- Georgetown University's cutting of ties with outside evangelical ministries has student-members of those groups puzzled about their place on campus.

"We're still very much in the dark about what we are officially allowed to do," said Georgetown senior Nathanael Oakes, a student leader at InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

The Madison, Wis.-based organization, which claims 35,000 members, aims to establish "witnessing communities of students and faculty who follow Jesus as Savior and Lord," according to its Web site.

Georgetown, a Catholic school with about 6,000 undergraduate students, banned staffers from several outside groups including InterVarsity, Chi Alpha, Asian Baptist Student Koinonia and Crossroad Campus Christian Fellowship on Aug. 14. The groups had been "affiliated ministries,"
operating in covenant agreements with Georgetown's campus ministry.

"As any previous covenant agreements ended with the 2005-2006 academic year, your ministries will no longer be allowed to hold any activity or presence ... on campus," wrote the Rev. Constance Wheeler, a Protestant chaplain at Georgetown, in a letter to the evangelical groups.

Representatives from the Campus Ministry office were not available to answer questions from a reporter.

Erik Smulson, spokesman for the university, said the decision followed a reorganization of the Protestant chaplaincy at Georgetown.

"With this restructuring has come a desire in the Protestant chaplaincy to build the ministry from within Georgetown and its Protestant leaders rather than rely on outside groups or fellowships," Smulson said in a statement.

InterVarsity, Chi Alpha and Asian Baptist Student Koinonia have branches at colleges nationwide and tens of thousands of students as members.

Smulson said that students can organize events, put up fliers and book rooms, but staff members hired by the outside groups cannot operate on campus. The groups, which include about 300 students at Georgetown, also cannot advertise their events as being sponsored by Georgetown University.

Oakes said students are frustrated that school administrators have not responded to requests for conversation. The religious groups banded together recently, organizing petitions on campus and sending letters to the university.

Some students noted a pattern of poor communications between the outside ministries and Georgetown officials.

"It's definitely not coming out of left field," Oakes said of the most recent ban.

He said the university has feared the groups were evangelizing on campus.

"They've always had this sort of Big Brother look at us, saying, `What are you guys doing? We don't know what you're doing. We don't want you evangelizing,"' Oakes said.

Tensions may have arisen because outside ministries are gaining more members than Georgetown's own religious organizations, Oakes said.

"Our ministries have been growing whereas theirs have been stagnant," he said.

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I wonder what sort of evangelizing tactics these groups have used on Catholic students?? This might have been the background for this move

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Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

My philosophy is that when Bob Jones University lets us on their campus, then they can come onto ours.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

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Peace brother Yuhannon,

Sadly it's not only the Bob Jones' we have to worry about. Even the so-called "mainline" protestant schools like Wheaton College in Illinois, have an anti-Catholic bias. This story is a few months old, but disturbing nontheless:
Quote
Evangelical College fires Professor for converting to Catholicism

Posted January 19, 2006
January 10, 2006
BY LESLIE BALDACCI
Sun Times


A former Wheaton College professor who was fired because he converted to Catholicism found himself this week at the center of a debate about diversity and theological perspectives in private, faith-based schools.

Faculty members at the west suburban evangelical Protestant college must sign a faith statement that the Bible is the final authority. Catholics follow the authority of Scripture and the pope.

Joshua Hochschild, an assistant professor of philosophy at Wheaton College for four years, became a Catholic on Easter 2004. He was dismissed last spring.

"I was sad to be leaving my colleagues and students and an institution I valued very highly," said Hochschild, 33. "But I support in principle the right of the institution to have exclusive hiring policies. Not every institution is a liberal democracy. We both agreed that Wheaton has a right to exclude Catholics if it wants to. We both agree there are significant differences between what a Catholic believes and what a Protestant believes. Our significant difference was over whether the statement of faith was an effective way of implementing a policy of excluding Catholics."

WHAT THEY SAID

These were among comments posted on the Freerepublic blog:

*"Wheaton has a right to hire whomever they want. They hang themselves out as an Evangelical School, they have a right to have an Evangelical faculty."

*"Since he had a contract that required him to be a practicing protestant, he broke the contract by converting to Catholicism. He should have tendered his resignation. He had a legal and moral obligation to resign."

*"Ideally, Hinduism should be taught by a Hindu, Islam taught by a Muslim, etc. That's the way Cardinal John Henry Newman defined the Idea of the University."

*"Heck, I want Catholic universities to fire the atheists, feminists, and communists who have taken over. I can't exactly fault Wheaton for taking similar measures to preserve their identity, though I do think it's their loss."

*"This is not a new issue for religious schools. Sooner or later, you're going to be forced to choose which is more important to you -- the best available scholar and academic, or the one with the right profession of faith. Sometimes you'll get lucky and both those qualities will exist in one person, but sooner or later push will come to shove and you'll have to decide which you prefer."

*"Having a Catholic on the faculty would not sit well with some donors, no matter how evangelically minded his brand of Catholicism may be. Other schools have kept their blanket prohibitions on alcohol use or dances for similar reasons."

Hochschild now teaches at Mount St. Mary's, a small Catholic college in Emmitsburg, Md., where he lives with his wife and three small children.

Not 'exclusionary'

"Should Wheaton be open to non-Protestant voices? That's a question I find it very difficult to weigh in on," Hochschild said. "The most interesting thing to me is in what sense Protestantism differs from Catholicism, and how hard that is to answer, and also the question of how religious colleges can best maintain their religious identity."

Wheaton College President Duane Litfin described the school as "a voluntary community of people who share a set of convictions, living, working and teaching out of those convictions."

"There is nothing exclusionary about this," Litfin said. "We understand the nature of this kind of institution and what it requires to retain this kind of institution over the longer term."

Litfin, whose 2004 book Conceiving the Christian College details his philosophy, said Wheaton follows a "systemic model where the entire institution, root to branch to leaf, is about that sponsoring religious tradition. If you are going to be that kind of institution, you have to have people there who embody that tradition. The whole institution is a voluntary community that gathers around this core set of values and say, 'This is us. We stand together on these issues.' Our hiring policy says you embody what you stand for. This institution cannot exist without that."

'Umbrella model'

Litfin cited the University of Notre Dame as an example of an "umbrella model." Under the umbrella of a school-sponsored religious tradition are "a variety of voices, a critical mass of people representing the sponsored religious tradition and other voices."

Hochschild, who received his Ph.D. in medieval philosophy from Notre Dame, said he did not consider converting to Catholicism while there. But looking back, he says he was influenced by "seeing in friends their scholarly interests connected to their spiritual lives. At least for certain individuals, their academic work, their scholarly work, was linked with not just theological commitments but a spiritual life."

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Christianity Today, which I normally consider a pretty decent and unbiased magazine, completely glossed over the details of Dr. Noll leaving and wrote an article making it seem as though it was voluntary. They also completely glossed over Dr. Noll's conversion to Catholicism, as if it was unrelated to the story.
Quote
Mark Noll Leaving Wheaton for Notre Dame
Prominent evangelical historian and public intellectual to replace retiring George Marsden.
by Rob Moll | posted 02/09/2006 04:00 p.m.

One of the evangelicalism's premier scholars will be leaving one of evangelicalism's premier colleges. Mark Noll will be moving from Wheaton College to the University of Notre Dame at the start of the school year this fall.

"This is one of the most painful announcements I've had to make in my nine and a half years as provost," says Stan Jones, provost at Wheaton. Noll has served as an inspiration and role model to students as well as other professors, Jones says. "I was inspired by his balance and maturity of thought."

"We're delighted to have him," says John McGreevy, chair of the department of history at Notre Dame. "We feel we have a strong program already. Mark will augment that."

Long a respected historian among evangelical scholars, Noll's stature has risen in recent years. His book America's God: From Jonathan Edwards to Abraham Lincoln was named "the most significant work of American historical scholarship" in 2002 by The Atlantic.

His 1994 book, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, has become shorthand for the ongoing conversation about evangelical anti-intellectualism, says John Wilson, editor of Books & Culture, a sister publication of Christianity Today. America's God however raised Noll's visibility beyond evangelical academic circles. It was one of the most important historical books in years, says Wilson, who called it Noll's magnum opus. In 2005, Time magazine named Noll one of America's 25 most influential evangelicals.

Noll's impact has been in three areas, according to Wilson: as an American historian, as a historian of evangelicalism to which he brought a global perspective, and as a scholar of the Bible in public life. His forthcoming book The Civil War as a Theological Crisis is a prime example, says Wilson.

Aside from his scholarly writing, Noll has fostered networks of evangelical scholars. He helped to found the Institute for the Study of American Evangelicalism, and in other informal ways, Noll fostered the evangelical intellectual community, according to Wilson.

"I think he has helped us break caricatures of evangelical anti-intellectualism," says Jones. "Noll is an exemplar of all that's good in Christian academia. He set the standard of what it means to be a Christian scholar and a Christian teacher." Despite being courted by other major universities, Noll has, until now, turned them down.

"The position he is going to is fantastic," says Jones. "There are two things Notre Dame is offering that Wheaton can't. One is Notre Dame's expansive intellectual community, especially in regard to history and religion. Another is the intensive training of a fine cadre of doctoral students."

McGreevy said the department had been considering how to replace George Marsden, who will retire in a little more than two years. Marsden has been a crucial part of the graduate program and the leading intellectual presence, says McGreevy. Marsden was unavailable for comment.

Noll expressed an interest in coming to the university, says McGreevy, and was invited to interview. Noll declined to comment on his departure.

"One of the attractions for us is Mark's interest in global Christianity," says McGreevy.

Noll is also active in dialogue between Catholics and Protestants. Noll and Carolyn Nystrom recently published Is the Reformation Over? "One thing Mark is committed to is Protestant/Catholic dialogue," says McGreevy. "Notre Dame is a good place to do that. There are lots of serious Catholics and Protestants who want to think about those issues."

"Mark is a good historian, very talented and distinguished," says McGreevy. "We're eager to welcome him."

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Originally posted by Michael_Thoma:
Tensions may have arisen because outside ministries are gaining more members than Georgetown's own religious organizations, Oakes said.

"Our ministries have been growing whereas theirs have been stagnant," he said.
This statement says it all, IMHO. Instead of looking inward to see what they might learn from these groups (umm...perhaps a little orthodoxy and Mere Christianity?) they go on the attack and throw them off campus. I think there is more here than meets the eye.

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It does seem strange but then they might be a risk for poorly educated Catholics. Here done under The Navigators are the sect that works the uni campuses. They usually do with with Asian students. Long way from home and family etc.

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Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
Quote
Originally posted by Michael_Thoma:
[b] Tensions may have arisen because outside ministries are gaining more members than Georgetown's own religious organizations, Oakes said.

"Our ministries have been growing whereas theirs have been stagnant," he said.
This statement says it all, IMHO. Instead of looking inward to see what they might learn from these groups (umm...perhaps a little orthodoxy and Mere Christianity?) they go on the attack and throw them off campus. I think there is more here than meets the eye.

Gordo [/b]
Indeed.


The Catholic Church is growing in numbers, and it is holding its own as a percentage of the population.

However, the Catholic Church is also losing members --lots of them-- to these new Evangelical, Pentecostal and non-denominational churches. Instead of ignoring them or sending them away, we should be studying them to see why they are so successful.

Perhaps we would see that, at the root, they are more open to Jesus than we are.

A small but telling illustration: Have you ever noticed how Catholics rarely use the Name of Jesus when they talk about God ? Catholics say "God" often; and they sometimes say "Christ"; but they rarely say "Jesus." And when they do say "Jesus" (not as a curse, but instead as talking about God), there is usually a uncomfortable brief pause -- half a breath-- because they are not used to referring to God as Jesus (outside of certain formal prayers). (Yes, some Catholics say the Jesus Prayer; but many don't or not very often.)

In contrast, the Evangelicals and the Pentecostals have zero problem saying the Name of Jesus. That is because Jesus who is their personal Savior. Jesus has personally saved them: individually as well as collectively. Jesus has personallyrevealed God to them. Jesus personally died for each of them, because of their individual sins. Jesus personally rose to give each of them eternal life. Jesus personally forgives their sins, and Jesus personally renews and changes their lives. Jesus is with them always, personally, and Jesus is guiding them to God. Jesus has personally and totally transformed their lives for the better. And that is because Jesus is God -- not remotely, but directly and personally in their lives. Hence, the Evangelicals and Pentecostals are personally open to Jesus; and they cultivate a personal relationship with Jesus; and they love to (reverently) use His Name.

Therein lies much of the difference. Catholics tend to regard God abstractly and formally; Evangelicals and Pentecostals tend to regard God personally and intimately: through Jesus. Catholics say "God"; Evangelicals and Pentecostals say "Jesus."

It all comes down to what personally motivates people. The Evangelicals and the Pentecostals emphasize their personal conversion experience by Jesus Christ; and that becomes the basis for their religion. We Catholics (especially Eastern Catholics) emphasize our tradition --liturgy, theology, community-- and we hope that the tradition will gradually lead people to a personal connection to God. Unfortunately, this latter policy can make God seem to be remote, liturgy to be somewhat empty, and the community to be at least as much about itself (ethnically or otherwise) instead of the people who have been personally saved by Jesus Christ. In contrast, the Evangelicals and Pentecostals might not have much at in the way of tradition, but they do have a direct, personal, life-changing relationship with Almighty God: because of Jesus. The Catholic Church often gets a grade of A for tradition, but it often gets a C- for a direct personal relationship with Jesus (which is very odd, considering that the "source and summit" of the Catholic Church is the Eucharist). Evangelicals and Pentecostals might get a D when it comes to tradition, but they get an A+ when it comes to openness to the reality of Jesus directly, personally and intimately touching people's hearts, converting their souls and changing their lives.

In sum, I think the Evangelicals and the Pentecostals are more open to the Person of Jesus than Catholics are overall. Thus, they are more able to be touched and saved by Jesus. And thus, they are more motivated to share Jesus with others -- because of what Jesus has done in their lives. As a result, they have more converts to Jesus, and they have more vitality in their churches, because they are more open directly to the Person of Jesus than we often are. We should be learning from them instead of banishing them.

-- John

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I'm certainly no fan of groups like this, but I think it is wrong to ban them from the campus. What Bob Jones does, I think does not speak to their credit. Why repeat it?

Anyway, I actually think this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant issue. I think it's evidence of a very troubling shift happening at Georgetown, and other Catholic universities around the country. I will not give money to my alma mater for instnace because of things going on there.

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first of all, I welcome Mark Noll, whose work is excellent in the area of Church History to Holy Mother Church. I only wish he was going EC. I am reading one of his works that was published a couple of years back, and I noted that he was speaking more like a Catholic than a Protestant, so his conversion comes as no surprise to me. hey, if you read Church History, you too will go Catholic or Orthodox, you don't have much of a choice. c'est le vie.
I see one poster being upset with the way things are At Georgetown. I was surprised to even read that there was an organized Protestant presence on that campus. I have had good Latin friends that went on to Georgetown, and I am sorry to see that
things there aren't as they should be.
Bob Jones has always had their boxers in a bunch when it comes to us, we are after all, the minions of the Great and Abominable Whore of Babylon, and we need to be saved (whatever). so,it goes with them.
it is true that Protestantism, whether it be fundamentalist, radical, or anything else in between the two extremes, is a highly personal religion. what happen then, is a low opinion of the Church per se. it is no difficult thing for a group of Protestants to break away from a congregation when ever they get ticked off, and start their own congregtion, eventually you have an atomization of Christianity. I have discussed this with an Evangelical pastor who too has been bothered by this, and he agreed with me. Catholicism, on the other hand, is more corporate in its approach. and in Orthodoxy, even more so. I see a middle path, where each of us is responsible for our relationship with Jesus Christ, but at the same time, it is not a "me and Jesus" situation. each of us need to see what we do and say affects the other memebrs in the Body of Christ. I myself accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour as a child, but I no longer personalize that relationship as I would my toothbrush.(read Ogilnik). I need to consider your needs as fellow members in the Body.
I am not surprised about the attitude in Evangelicalsim towards Catholics (and Orthodox). when I was a student at Temple Baptist, we had a gentleman's understanding that they would let me attend and I would not swing rosary beads over my head or set up Icons around my study table at the school library. I did well, and while I heard the usual shots at Catholicism. I took advantage of the oppotunities to slip in a Catholic perspective, delicately, of course, in classroom discussions, especially in the area of Church History, where I excelled.
I believe I can see a situation where Catholics at Georgetown could be targets of Protestant proselytization, but I also realize that Marxists,apostates, and the rest of that bunch who disguise themselves as Catholics have been doing this on Catholic campuses for decades
so, again, welcome Mark Noll, I know you can understand my experience as I can understand yours.
Much Love,
Jonn

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Dear John you said:

Quote
I believe I can see a situation where Catholics at Georgetown could be targets of Protestant proselytization, but I also realize that Marxists,apostates, and the rest of that bunch who disguise themselves as Catholics have been doing this on Catholic campuses for decades
I say:

I agree! From what I've heard, too many Catholic universities have 'athiest' professors simply because they want government money. It's a trend that has been going on for some time. I believe Pope John Paul II addressed it. frown

It seems to me the Evangelicals were banned because 'religion' is not politically correct in our current college climate. Oh that's right, I forgot. Didn't the former president of Iran speak at Georgetown? I guess it basic Christianity that's not correct. Sophistication you know! :rolleyes:

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If I were to send my child to a Catholic school, I would not expect his faith to be undermined or ridiculed by groups who are sponsored or hired by the school. I don't have a problem with non-Catholic teachers, as long as they agree to teach according to established Catholic doctrine. (Though, today one must worry more about the teachers who are Catholic..) Why should I expect less?

I think the Protestant chaplain, the in-house Protestant ministries, the formal ties to Protestant evangelical groups, etc should be severed. I have no problem with Evangelical schools doing likewise.

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Georgetown University is a major American university with excellent scholars/ professors and research facilities.
International Studies at Georgetown in particular is world reknown.
I am sure many students, especially graduate students or students in the professional faculties such as law go to Georgetwon University because of its academic reputation and reknown not because it is a Catholic University. How many people in the American government are alumni of Georgetown University. I understand the number to be significant. Never mind all the scholarships available to bright young scholars, another attraction.

There are many smaller and cheaper local Catholic universities to attend. Even in Washington DC, there is Catholic University of America.

What per centage of the students are Catholic at Georgetown University? Are the majority of the students Catholic?

I know there is a Greek Orthodox chaplain and ministry at Georgetown University in addition to the Protestant chaplain.

At my son's university here in Canada, there is a Campus Ministry Association which includes an Orthodox chaplain, assigned by his bishop. The Campus Ministry Association requires that university chaplains must have CPE, clinical Pastoral Education in addition to their theological education and a letter of approval from their church or hierarchy.
The Campus Ministry Association also produces and hands out in the orientation package for students, a pamplet about religious cults.
Maybe Georgetown University is concerned about protecting young impressionalble students from religious cults.

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I wouldn't exactly call these evangelical organizations "religious cults." Their only objectionable trait is that they are unembarrassed at being openly Christian and witnessing for Jesus Christ. It may be that Georgetown has taken on the prevailing political correctness of the culture that sees such open witnessing for Christ as something that needs to be downplayed in the name of diversity. If so, I wouldn't be surprised since many Catholic institutions seem to be moving in that direction--diversity means more than our Faith.

In Christ,

BOB

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I appreciate your comments about political correctness and diversity.
However, I am still wondering if one of the issues is the fact that in order to be a chaplain on their campus, the candidate has to have a theological degree and CPE, clinical pastoral education.
For example, Campus Crusade and Inter Varsity Christian Fellowship both use employees that they hire. Often these employees are youg people who are not ordained, do not theological degrees or CPE. I am not implying that these 2 groups are cults but they may use methods that are deceptive or manipulative. As I said before, young students away from home are vulnerable.
One of the methods which Camous Crusade used to use (and I am not sure if they still do), was the go out in groups of two and approach individual students and ask if they would participate in a survey. Because may students taking Sociology 101 are required to take student surveys as part of their course, this sounds innocence. The questions asked are about religion in general and end up asking about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Then the student is invited to a Bible study. Quite often the students is asked his name and phone number. Then the student is phoned and contact repeatedly. They are offered an opportunity to go to a retreat for a weekend at a very nice lake/ camp site. As a result of the friendly pressure some students give in.
This happened at my son's university. The Campus Ministry Association investigated and asked for information about how the surveys are used, or what is done with the data collected. This has been going on for years and of course the surveys were just a gimmick to open a conversation with the student. As a result Campus Crusade and Navigators were banned from the university campus along with Moonies.
This university has a Lutheran chaplain, an Anglican chaplain, a Greek Orthodox chaplain, a Newman Centre, Hillel, and other Catholic chaplains. These chaplains are responsible to their own churches and also to the Campus Ministry Association. There are checks and balances.

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