www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Katrina and the U.S.

But on a more serious note, this business of proclaiming the Divine Purpose of disasters irks me. The only ones who have that knowledge are the prophets of God, and last I looked they are in short supply around here. Certainly the apparition chasers that we have been linked to don't qualify.
One poster here recently claimed that the largely Catholic city of Nagasaki was targeted [by God?] because they were bad Catholics! I mean really...
I doubt there was more sin in New Orleans than in Peoria, per capita. Granted, it was a more celebratory atmosphere,not secretive and pent up, like prudish sinners prefer, but as St Thomas said, in the sins of the flesh there is more shame, but less blame.
What next, Houston was spared because there they don't have Mardi Gras, but instead have weapons manufacturers, who arm our armies to conquer evil terrorists? :rolleyes:
The only Divine Purpose we should see is the opportunity to love our neighbors.
Daniel

Dear Friends,

I was watching Anderson Cooper on CNN last night.

He spoke with three U.S. soldiers about their adopted dog, "Katrina."

He asked them, "And where did you come up with the name 'Katrina?'"

The soldiers just gave him a long "duhhh" look . . .

The dog seemed intelligent though!

Alex

DJS

I think this article that appeared on CNN today does a better job of explaining why I believe so strongly in self reliance and Rugged Individualism, then I could immediately put into words.


Leadership vacuum stymied aid offers
Doctor: Officials gave hospital staffers mops as people died


(CNN) -- As violence, death and misery gripped New Orleans and the surrounding parishes in the days after Hurricane Katrina, a leadership vacuum, bureaucratic red tape and a defensive culture paralyzed volunteers' attempts to help.

Doctors eager to help sick and injured evacuees were handed mops by federal officials who expressed concern about legal liability. Even as violence and looting slowed rescues, police from other states were turned back while officials squabbled over who should take charge of restoring the peace.

Warehouses in New Orleans burned while firefighters were diverted to Atlanta for Federal Emergency Management Agency training sessions on community relations and sexual harassment. Water trucks languished for days at FEMA's staging area because the drivers lacked the proper paperwork.

Consider the stories of these frustrated volunteers:


Dr. Bong Mui and his staff, evacuated with 300 patients after three hellish days at Chalmette Medical Center, arrived at the New Orleans airport, and were amazed to see hundreds of sick people. They offered to help. But, the doctor told CNN, FEMA officials said they were worried about legal liability. "They told us that, you know, you could help us by mopping the floor." And so they mopped, while people died around them. "I started crying," he recalled. "We felt like we could help, and were not allowed to do anything." (Watch the video of hundreds languishing sick at the airport -- 4:16)


Steve Simpson, sheriff of Loudoun County, Virginia, sent 22 deputies equipped with food and water to last seven days. Their 14-car caravan, including four all-terrain vehicles, was on the road just three hours when they were told to turn back. The reason, Simpson told CNN: A Louisiana state police official told them not to come. " I said, "What if we just show up?' He says, 'You probably won't get in.' " Simpson said he later learned a dispute over whether state or federal authorities would command the law enforcement effort was being ironed out that night. But no one ever got back to him with the all-clear.


FEMA halted tractor trailers hauling water to a supply staging area in Alexandria, Louisiana, The New York Times quoted William Vines, former mayor of Fort Smith, Arkansas, as saying. "FEMA would not let the trucks unload," he told the newspaper. "The drivers were stuck for several days on the side of the road" because, he said, they did not have a "tasker number." He added, "What in the world is a tasker number? I have no idea. It's just paperwork and it's ridiculous."


Firefighters who answered a nationwide call for help were sent to Atlanta for FEMA training sessions on community relations and sexual harassment. "On the news every night you hear 'How come everybody forgot us?' " Pennsylvania firefighter Joseph Manning told The Dallas Morning News. "We didn't forget. We're stuck in Atlanta drinking beer." http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/15/katrina.response/index.html

When your fellow man in New Orleans is facing death, I think the Christian thing to do, is to attempt to go to his aid, and not worry whether you're FEMA approved to carry out rescues or not. The more you depend on the government the more of a helpless dependent you become.

Dear Daniel,

I gather from your comments that you do not accept the Bible and that is your right. As for me, I consider everything that God has done to be an example of what our behavior and faith should be. I guess we see things differently.

I also believe that if God allows something to happen then it would be a good idea to try to find the reason. Certainly He must have a reason to have allowed it? Not that we can always understand why, but then again we can use the Bible as a reference. Oh I forgot, you do not accept that.

I have heard and surely believe that we have a veil of protection on our nation. Now Ruth Graham once said we are protected as long as we spread the Gospel throughout the world. I have no reason to doubt, judge or 'mock' her opinion.

As for that veil of protection, I have read that before Constantinople was captured by the Turks, the people saw a white mist rising from Aghia Sophia to heaven. They believed that it was the Holy Spirit leaving. I believe we could call it that or simply call it a manifistation of that 'veil'.

Now why was it leaving? Well for six months the people refused to step into that great church because it was cataminated by a Latin Mass. For six months there was fighting between Greeks and Italians or Venecians between Genovese, etc. etc. All their fighting stopped on that last day, and they entered the Church to pray for protection. Too late me thinks. Of course this is 'my' opinion.

I guess it's little things like these that has formed my opinions. Of course you think differently, and as I said, that is your right...so please don't put 'judgement' on mine.

Zenovia

Sarcasm does not become you, my friend. I know you are enamoured with Protestant Christianity and their claims to direct knowledge of the meaning of Sacred Scripture, but I am not impressed. To cite one instance, your pal Pat Robertson, who recently called for the assassination of Mr Chavez, [who dares challenge the USA, and its economic interests], was not so concerned about human rights in the years that he supported the dictator Rios Montte, who attacked the Catholic Church and the peasantry, but professed to be "born again".
America as the great Apostle of the Gospel? What of American missionaries spreading the "gospel" of Prosperity to the poorest of the poor? That sort of holy cargo cult that too many televangelists promote? The ones whose main message seems to be "send me your money"? This is not even to mention the gospels of contraception, materialism, pornography, and the arms race which spread out from the USA.
I don't doubt that there is meaning in the events that unfold in this world, only that souls blinded by nationalism and the Holy Religion of Americanism can discern it.
Too many American Christians are blinded by their naivete, and end up easily manipulated by the global corporate empire. Throw them a few bones- a personal testimony or two, rhetoric about freedom, while quashing human rights- and they will roll over while the plunderers fill their pockets.
-Daniel

Lawrence- "Rugged individualism"? "Self reliance"? Is this the "Byzantine Forum" or the "Transcendentalist Forum"? Or the "Objectivist Forum "["Objectivism" being the theory of the radical individualist Ayn Rand, the one who proclaimed selfishness a virtue]?
One not need to be a statist to proclaim the importance of solidarity, of human interdependence, of the centrality of Love. It is called "Catholic Social Teaching". Check it out.
-Daniel

I am very critical of the bureaucratic sluggishness in the response to this disaster. Particularly because of all of the post 9/11 planning and money which was aimed at emergency preparedness.

But this ...
... is ideological blindness. Imagine the deaths that would have accompnaied this storm in say the 1940's before satellite tracking, before interstate highways that facilitated evacuation. The idea that people government was a net negative in this situation would be very difficult to support.

Dear Daniel you said:

"To cite one instance, your pal Pat Robertson, who recently called for the assassination of Mr Chavez, [who dares challenge the USA, and its economic interests], was not so concerned about human rights in the years that he supported the dictator Rios Montte, who attacked the Catholic Church and the peasantry, but professed to be "born again"."

I say:

I guess Pat Robertson is not God...he makes mistakes. As for Mr. Chavez I know that one member of my family, who is quite knowledgable in foreign affairs, stated that he is truly a 'menace'. Obviously a sociopath...oh that's right, he is willing to help out with the New Orleans situation. Then again maybe he's doing it because he's afraid of Pat Robertson. Too funny! That is if the people in his country were not suffering so much.

As for being enamored by Protestant theology I can only say which one. You know we believe in the Bible also...if that is what you are referring to.

Actually though, I do believe that the Evangelicals are needed. Now mind you I did not say 'fundamentalist' elitists, nor the liberalized main stream Protestant faiths.

The reason I say they are needed is because someone dear to me just returned from an Orthodox nation. They were appalled at the total acceptance of abortion as a means of birth control and the pornagraphy on the magazine covers at the kiosks not to mention daytime TV.

You know one has to know the language in order to realize what is really going on in other countries. The Church is looked on as being only a part of one's national heritage.

This person also told me that they listened to a sermon by a priest and said it was totally irrelevant to the world they live in.

My response: Why don't they allow the Evangelicals to come in? Maybe the young people will start their Christian journey, because that's what it is. They'll help them start their Christian growth process because they have a way of reaching the young. Now tell me Daniel, is that so bad?

The world is certainly becoming the way Pope Benedict said it was. He said that Christians will be persecuted, but not the way they were in the past. There will be a social persecution, where any symbolism or expression of Christianity will be condemned. It might be Europe today, but tomorrow it will be us.

You said:

"I don't doubt that there is meaning in the events that unfold in this world, only that souls blinded by nationalism and the Holy Religion of Americanism can discern it.
Too many American Christians are blinded by their naivete, and end up easily manipulated by the global corporate empire.

I say:

The key word here is 'naivete'. Thankfully we are naive, but not in the sense you mean it. I say thankfully because I am now reading a book on Iran called 'In the Rose Garden of the Martyrs'. Amazingly the author says the Iranians consider hypocrisy a virtue. They are not the only ones. Maybe a little of our innocence and naivete might be a nice thing to export.

The only problem is that we are so naive that we are not aware of how people in other cultures think...so we end up condemning our own. Never realizing that they have no Christian concepts behind theirs.

As for me I believe in unity between the Catholics and Orthodox because if we were united we might be able to attract these Evangelicals. They might be able to accept our theology and become a movement within the universal Church. (Now I'm not talking about characters like Benny Hinn).

You said:

"Throw them a few bones- a personal testimony or two, rhetoric about freedom, while quashing human rights- and they will roll over while the plunderers fill their pockets."

I say:

I don't know if you are talking about the corporations or about Pat Robertson, but if it's Robertson, then you are mistaken. The reason he is hated and hounded, (as are most saintly men), is because he makes his listeners aware of what issues are being brought before Congress and tells them to do something about it.

When the Senators and Representatives start receiving those hundreds of thousands of calls telling them how to vote on issues affecting Christians, both Evangelical and Catholic, they become aware of his influence ...and the only way they can fight it is by calumnizing him in order to discredit him.

It doesn't work, not with those that know him, only with those that don't and who are willing to accept what ever they read and hear. So let us leave it to each one's personal discernment.

Zenovia

Daniel

I don't know what it is you think I have in mind when I speak of self reliance, but I can assure you it isn't selfishness. The more self reliant each of us becomes, the more able we are to assist the truly needy members of society i,e the infirm, the very old, the very young. And as for Rugged Individualism, it isn't Ayn Rand's concept I believe in, but rather Herbert Hoover's, as opposed to the New Deal socialism of FDR.

L- Herbert Hoover?!
No comment on that.
Z- The problem with Evangelical evangelizing is that while yes, they may be speaking of Christ, they are also bringing a host of very American cultural poisons to people who were innocent of them.
In Latin America, for example, it is true that they brought knowledge of Christ to people who were poorly evangelized by the Catholic Church. They also brought contraception, consumerism, and a scorn for the deep cultural traditions of the people, rooted in Catholicism.
I think the Devil is willing to sacrifice the first generation of "born agains" for the long term goal of poisoning a whole culture. Protestantism is, historically, the first step to secularism.
None of this is to deny the good will or sincerity of the Evangelicals. But they carry a profound ignorance within them.
I have a friend, now a Catholic, who once made a missionary trip to Ukraine with her Evangelical church. She says they were listening to Janet Jackson and Madonna on the plane ride. Once there, they thought of the Ukrainians as basically pagan, handing out tracts in the shadows of Orthodox and Catholic churches, some of great beauty.
As for your smarty-aleck comment that I must not believe in the Bible: just where in the Bible does it say that Nagasaki was bombed because the Catholics there didn't measure up? I seemed to have missed that one.
Or was it in 2nd Zenovia ?
-Daniel

Dear Friends,

Just a note to say I watched the President's speech from New Orleans last night before the Cathedral of St Louis and Gen. Jackson's statue.

I thought it was an excellent speech, he said what should have been said, expressed the determination and generosity of the government to help the people and the area affected by Katrina and I would think many would be buoyed by his comments.

I was particularly moved by his comments about the poor and its relation to racial history.

If what the President said can come into being, then that will truly be something remarkable and wonderful.

Or so say I.

God bless America!

Hail to the Chief!

Alex

Dear Friends,

Just a note to say I watched the President's speech from New Orleans last night before the Cathedral of St Louis and Gen. Jackson's statue.

I thought it was an excellent speech, he said what should have been said, expressed the determination and generosity of the government to help the people and the area affected by Katrina and I would think many would be buoyed by his comments.

I was particularly moved by his comments about the poor and its relation to racial history.

If what the President said can come into being, then that will truly be something remarkable and wonderful.

Or so say I!

God bless America, y'all!

Hail to the Chief!

(Hail to the Chief, he's the chief and he needs hailing . . . ).

Alex

Here's the transcript:

COOPER: Another animal story to tell you about. These guys are from the Oklahoma National Guard. They found -- this dog was left by its owner who evacuated. They basically adopted it. first of all, what are your names?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Specialist Spagilica (ph).

COOPER: Your name?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Specialist Crenshaw (ph).

COOPER: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Specialist Hubbard (ph).

COOPER: OK. So, first of all, how did you come up with the name Katrina?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pretty obvious.

--tim

Dear Tim,

Thank you! I didn't catch the "pretty obvious . . ."

But they DID give Anderson a real look!

Good for you!

What did you think of the President's speech last night?

Or do we need to pay you up front first?

Alex

Thanks, but I'll pass.

--tim