www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Katrina and the U.S.

O.K., Big Guy!

Have a great weekend!

Alex

Well.... the speech was shown at the Astrodome to the evacuees and the response was well... less then reverential and I can understand that reaction.
Mr Bush really did not and does not have a clue about what he is speaking of. Cliche upon cliche. The people of New Orleans know the reality and God bless them!!!!

Iconophile,
I love reading your posts! Keep up the good work.
My major in college was Economics. Twenty years ago, I bought all that crap about laissez-faire Economics. But now I see it is not a Christian way of looking at things. Remember the Beatitudes? The Republicans are all for limiting government involvement, unless we're fighting a war on terrorism, which makes a wrong turn and goes into Iraq to finish a family vendetta. Or, a natural disaster (and world attention) makes them focus on the problems at home rather than abroad. Didn't Christ say, "Remove the plank from your own eye, before you point out the splinter in your brother's eye?"
When Bush tried to push private accounts in the Social Security System, I thought, "Oh boy, here we go. Back to the raw capitalism of the 19th century." Do we really want less government regulations and a return to the sweatshops of the 19th century?
The next time we have a Democrat for President, the Republicans are going to moan, "Tax and spend Democrats". Hello Republicans, you cut taxes and then go make a war. Somebody has to pay for your demagoguery. I read an article in the newspaper stating that the per-capita national debt is now $145,000. Silly Republicans, you call yourselves Conservatives; yet you're going to run this country into the ground in debt.
I prefer a more tempered Capitalism, like that of Canada or Europe, which is much more reflective of Christ's command, "Whatever you do for the least of these, that you do unto me."

Dear Daniel,

Since you have placed yourself as judge and jury and that 'I' have to answer to you, I will therefore bow to your self righteous 'majesty' and graciously respond:

I read recently that every place of worship in Japan was ordered to have a statue of eithor Buddha or the Emporor, (a god). From that I came to the conclusion that two Gods were being worshipped in the churches...now that would include the RC churches, wouldn't it?

It was an accident by the way. The pilot lost his way and dropped the bomb just anywhere. Certainly God must have known where they would fall...now wouldn't He?

You know a family member of mine visited both Horoshima and Nagasaki. He said that at Hiroshima it was difficult to sleep. He felt uneasy all night. In Nagasaki it was different. He slept fine. I guess because the place was blessed. I have heard of things like that before.

I also heard that some twelve or so Jesuit monks that were in the midst of things did not suffer the least bit of radiation. See God does protect those He wants to protect. I guess to comfort the injured.

At the sites the Japanese had grand museums about the horrors of the bombs. In Nagasaki there was also a small run down museum by the Korean government showing the attrocities that were committed by the Japanese on the Koreans. There was one picture where the Korean princess was being beheaded.

These things are not taught in Japan. I was told when the Japanese saw them, they were in a state of shock.

Okay Daniel, you can come back now with some nasty comments since you are intent on hounding me.

Zenovia

Dear Wolfgang you said:

"I prefer a more tempered Capitalism, like that of Canada or Europe, which is much more reflective of Christ's command, "Whatever you do for the least of these, that you do unto me."

I say:

First of all Christ meant it for individuals, not for governments. He also said we will always have the poor among us. Second, our economy is greater than Europes.

You know I can't understand people like you. Certainly Canada will accept you if you desire to immigrate there. All you need is $10,000 so you won't burden their health care system.

Zenovia

On ABC�s Nightline last night they had a bunch of evacuees at the Astrodome gathered to watch the President�s speech. It wasn�t his finest speech (he is not a great public speaker) but it was sincere and he offered a solid plan (tax-free enterprise zones are a lot cheaper and effective than just passing out money, grants and loans towards home ownership instead of more failed public housing). It was hilarious to watch the ABC on-site reporter. He was asking his guests if all kind of leading questions to get them to say that they blamed Bush or the federal government for the problems with evacuation and rescue. Guest after guest blamed the New Orleans mayor and the Louisiana governor. Several actually stated specifically that they did not blame Bush for anything and that corruption at the local and state level was to blame. It was hilarious to watch the obviously anti-Bush reporter get frustrated as the guests did not give him the answers he was trying to get.

Regarding the Beatitudes, they are not now and never have been a command for socialism. Free market capitalism, engaged in by those dedicated to Christian principles, has shown itself to be the best system for everyone � especially the poor. The poor are the least poor in capitalist countries. The answer is not to confiscate the wealth from those who work hard and give it to the poor but to feed the poor AND to teach them the skills to earn a living. The problems that occur in capitalism happen when the participants don�t adhere to Christian principles. Canada and Europe? Canada grows when the United States grows and fails when we fail. Europe has growth that is a fraction of ours and is a welfare state about to collapse. No, the United States with all its flaws is still the best.

I am hoping that the President will be able to get private accounts inside Social Security. Retirees in cities that opted out of Social Security have developed nice nest eggs by being to keep their money instead of giving it to the government. There needs to be a safety net for those truly in need but the average worker should be able to invest most of the money he pays in social security taxes in an account that belongs to him, and that he can leave to his children. Imagine a death benefit of $200,000 instead of $250.

I agree with: "Whatever you do for the least of these, that you do unto me." That is a fitting description of America. Americans � people and government � give more to poor people around the world than any other nation.

Zenovia- Really, as I said before, sarcasm does not become you; leave it to those of us who can pull it off with good humor.
One of the Jesuits of whom you speak, Fr Pedro Arrupe, SJ, who went on to become Minister General of the Order [and whom I will not attempt to defend other than noting that the poor man had been through a nuclear bombing] wrote of his experience. By chance the Catholic Worker newspaper has reprinted his testimony in the current issue. It is not available online, but if you can get ahold of it I highly recommend it; it is a powerful antidote to your somewhat pietistic explanations of the Divine Will; what he mainly saw was the utter barbarity of the thing, and the intense human suffering.
And I am not "hounding" you. If you make outrageous claims, expect that they will be challenged, and don't take it personally.
I am sorry to see that the Administrator buys the neoconservative myth. In fact, everywhere the Global Corporate Empire has taken root the result has been more, not less, oppression. Some may say, "Well a dollar a day is better than what they had", but when one considers the cultural and ecological destruction that inevitably follows in the wake of "development" [ie, exploitation] it seems low wages indeed.
"The problems that happen in capitalism occur when the participants don't adhere to Christian principles": In that we agree; only I figure we can count on the participants not adhering to Christian principles In other words it is you and not I who is too trusting of the heart of Man.

And Ludwig: thanks, I needed that. This often feels a thankless task. Glad to see that someone gets it.
peace,
Daniel

I am glad that at least Bush finally begins to get it:

I am glad that he has declared a commitment to rebuild New Orleans.

I am not sure what you mean prescisely, but I think that poverty rates and conditions are not so simply correlated to market freedom. The Heritage Foundation catalogs economic freedom of countries, we outrank most of Europe, but I don't think we have less poverty than, say Norway, or Belgium, Germany.

This is not part of the Bush plan. Maybe you meant something more subtle than "belongs".

Hard a hard time finding documentation on this point. Would you share yours?

Dear DJS you said:

I am glad that he has declared a commitment to rebuild New Orleans.

I say:

Throughout history places have been destroyed by natural disasters. Rarely have they been rebuilt on the same spot. Actually some cities just died. As an example Ephesus that lost it's seaport through an earthquake. Then there was Rome that died out for over a millineum because of malaria and I guess we could go on and on.

Then again there were cities that were built one upon the other for centuries and centuries. Actually there had been seven Troys, all in the same spot.

Then again Venice is sinking and flooded part of the year because they are trying to maintain a museum. Normally the homes would have been torn down and newer one's built higher up. The Italians have never decided on flood gates like they have in the Netherlands, so I guess unless another ice age starts and the water level falls, it's a goner.

So I'm not too sure if it's a good idea to rebuild New Orleans other than maybe the historic areas. Who ever heard of a city being built on mud and under water? Aren't we just reinviting disaster?

If the weather patterns are changing, then isn't it possible that New Orleans might be hit again. Is it worth billions to rebuild something that will be destroyed once more?

Of course Pres. Bush is thinking of the jobs it will produce and in that sense it will be a benefit to an economy that is very hard pressed because of Katrina. All in all, I think we should start adapting to the prevailing weather conditions, at least in our architecture. You know I would build the homes with cement, make rounded edges, and make the third or fourth floor the living area.

You said:

Americans � people and government � give more to poor people around the world than any other nation.

I say:

This is hard to prove because we have tax deductions for charitable institutions. But that in itself would be proof that we give a great deal, don't you think?

As for what happened in New Orleans, the leve's were found to need reinforcment during the 1970's, but it seems the environmentalists thought more of the crabs than the people living there.

Zenovia


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Dear Daniel,

Since you feel that it is proper to give 'negative' opinions of others freely on this forum, then let me give you mine. I can't stand judgemental and self righteous people. I find it an anti-thesis of Christianity.

As for believing and imagining that I am someone else on this forum with a different personality and writing style simply because we have similar concepts, I have to say that 'paranoia' doesn't become anyone, especially a so called 'Christian'. A terrible lack of 'discernment' don't you think?

I apologize if my post is uncharitable, but 'goading and sarcasm' can have it's limits.

Zenovia

To All,

I kept wondering why there was so much complaining about the looting in New Orleans. After all I thought, it was simply people wanting food, or maybe some kids taking things that would ruin anyway.

Well an explanation was given by a General on FOX News of the looting in New Orleans. What had happened was that gangs from Memphis and cities as far as Miami, had come with boats and SUV's in order to loot. Many of the police were corrupt while others did not have the means to do anything about it. They only had one boat.

One person in the National Guard said he felt he was back in Iraq. At night the rival gangs would be fighting one another for the greatest 'haul'. They robbed banks, jewelry stores, etc., and only now the insurance companies are realizing the cost.

They caught about 300 thieves, but they were simply the locals with some TV sets, etc., not the real gangs. The 'loot' is now spread all over the country...if one should wonder why the Mayor kept calling SOS.

I guess leadership was needed here to call in the National guard and after all the only real leader is our President. I guess there are times when the Federal government has to trample on the rights of the states.

I guess 'gangsterism' is one more thing that has to be taken into account in the case of a major catastrophy.

Zenovia

My dear Zenovia- You really should calm down and reread what you have written. All things should be done in charity, you know. I have not attacked you personally, but only challenged your opinions. True, I did so frankly, and with a good bit of humor, but I have not attacked your character. Yet I am "nasty", "judgemental", "self righteous", and a "so-called Christian".
It always alarms me when spirited argument- which I can enjoy- turns to personal invective. I have taken breaks from posting here before when this happens [always voluntary, I might add] and maybe it is time for another one...

It is true I asked another poster if "Zenovia" was her alter ego. It was a question, not an accusation. And it wasn't paranoia, which involves fear. I just noted a certain affinity in your posts. Nor did I consider it nefarious if true. Most posters are fairly anonymous, and there have been a few whom I have suspected of a great deal of fiction in their anecdotal tales. I didn't think there was anything wrong if someone had two screen names.
Indeed the person I questioned stated that you and she were relatives. So I was on to something in noting the affinity, wasn't I? Remarkable powers of perception, don't you think?

Finally, this is a "forum", a place where opinions are exchanged. It can get hot, but it shouldn't ever get hateful. If you can't handle it without getting your feelings hurt, maybe you should stick to the prayer thread, the only place where arguments don't break out. [Indeed, it would do us all well to spend more time there, and that's where I am going now...}
-Daniel

Dear Zenovia,
Whatever happened in the distant past, I think it fair to say that Americans are unlikely to abandon a site after a catastrophe. Sounds too much like quitting and that is somehting we won't do. I think that some rezoning will occur in NO, but nothing especially drastic. The Dutch seem to manage with ~10 million living below sea level, I think we can work it out.

This sarcastic caricature of the environmentalists is rather unfortunate, especially for someone who writes in the very same post:

Dear DJS,

Okay, I carried my destaste for (certain) environmentalists to an extreme, and I apologize. But you know, many of them do carry things to an extreme.

As for New Orleans, I have a solution. Since they are going to bulldoze certain areas, why not just cover them up. There are millions of trees and trash from Katrina throughout Miss. and La. They should haul it all to New Orleans, shred it and load it on top of the bulldozed houses. Build the area's up, so rather than wondering what they are going to do with the bacteria and toxic waste they could let nature take it's course.

Trees could be planted and in time the soil underneath will be neutralized and this way all the newer homes will be above sea level.

Now that's my solution.

Zenovia

Dear Daniel you said:

My dear Zenovia- You really should calm down and reread what you have written. All things should be done in charity, you know. I have not attacked you personally, but only challenged your opinions.

I say:

Everyone has had different experiences in their lives and it is these experiences that have formed their opinions. Of course there are people that are deceitful, but remember if you question them without knowing for sure, then you are being judgemental.

Now what I do is accept everything everyone says. If someone for instance says something about another, I accept it as being that person's opinion. In time I will realize if that person's opinion was correct. If not then it is probably a reflection of their own character.

Now what you should have done with things that I have written, is to retain what I have stated. In time you will know where I'm coming from or not...depending on what you want.

I know some of my opinions seem strange. It's because they are unique. They are not formed from any one source. For instance I try to relate the catastropies within my experiences and knowledge and try to find a correlation as to why God would allow these things to occur. I can't help but feel that it has to do with the occult and how prevalent it is within a society. Now this is the direction my thoughts are going in.

You said:

True, I did so frankly, and with a good bit of humor, but I have not attacked your character.

I say:

You 'mocked' me and my opinions and to me it's not humorous.

Zenovia