www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Good morning from Ireland

Hello from a [Linked Image] in Ireland!

You will note from my profile that I a Baptist pastor in Ireland. Let me assure that I fully respect your board and am not here to cause problems, but to learn about a church I know very little about.

Dear Berean,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Welcome to the forum, may you follow in the footsteps of your namesakes and eagerly learn about our Churches.

An interesting thought already.

I amused to talking to Roman Catholics who refers to our "Church."

You refer to our "Churches." Is that a typo or is there a difference in the terminology?

Dear Berean,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Father Deacon John is quite correct using the term �Churches�. The Universal Catholic Church is comprised of the (Western) Latin Church (which people normally refer to as the Roman Catholic Church) and 22 Eastern Catholic Churches.

From matters of faith, the beliefs of Catholics are universal. Any Catholic, Western or Eastern, may participate fully in liturgical celebrations at any Catholic Church, since all Catholic Churches are in communion with each other and are fully united under the Pope of Rome.

Since the origins of the Eastern Catholic Churches were from geographic territories influenced by Greek culture (versus the Roman culture of Rome), differences arose in the manner of celebration. For instance, Roman Catholics celebrate the Latin Mass. Eastern Catholics celebrate the Divine Liturgy, such as the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom celebrated by Byzantine Catholics.

The Churches are sui iuris, which means self-governing. The extent to which they govern themselves in matters such as the appointment of bishops, the celebration of certain feasts and rules applying to the administration of the eparchies (dioceses) vary depending on whether the Church is headed by a patriarch or major archbishop or archbishop or bishop, etc.

Churches sui iuris

It used to be that each of the various Oriental and Eastern Catholic entities was referred to as a "Rite" (e.g., Melkite Rite, Ukrainian Rite); that was inaccurate since it misused the meaning of the word. For instance, in the example that I just used, the Melkites and Ukrainians actually use the same Rite - the Byzantine Rite. In more recent times, the Holy See has given recognition to each of the Oriental and Eastern Catholic bodies as a Church sui iuris. Together, the Churches sui iuris, including the Latin or Roman Church, constitute the Catholic Church.

Rites

The term "Rite" is now used appropriately to describe the form which characterizes the complex of liturgical services of any Church or group of Churches sui iuris. Thus, each Church sui iuris 'belongs to' or 'uses' or 'is of' a Rite.

Traditions

Some Rites are further delineated by the Tradition from which they derive, e.g., otherwise generally similar ceremonies or rituals may be distinguished by particular prayers, linguistic variants, or cultural variations expressed in things such as style of vestments, chant, or other externals.

Usages

Usages, generally, only apply to the Latin Church; the sole exception among the Eastern or Oriental Churches is the Knanya Catholics of the Syro-Malabarese Catholic Church.

Rites

If you research how many Rites are extant in the Catholic Church, you will find various experts citing a range of numbers, from 4 to 8. It really depends on where you draw the line between "Rite" and "Tradition". At the most basic level, there are only 4 Rites - 1 Latin (or Roman) Rite and 3 Eastern (or Oriental) Rites (i.e., Alexandrean, Antiochene, and Byzantine); that line of thought reflects the fact that all Rites developed from the customs and style of worship practiced in what were the 4 most important centers of Christian development - at a time when achievement of uniformity was hampered by the limitations geography and communication imposed.

In time, the Rites which originated from those 4 sites were either modified by those who carried them back to other cities or were developed further in those new regions. Some of the variations that arose came to be considered Rites unto themselves. Thus, in some lists of Rites, you will find 'Maronite'; in others, it is deemed a "Tradition" within the West Syrian-Antiochene Rite, which is where its origins were. The Armenian Rite had its origins in the Byzantine Rite, but developed in a state of relative geographic isolation (as was the case with the Maronites); accordingly, you can find Armenian listed as a "Rite" or as a "Tradition", depending on the author's perspective. (Melkite ritual practice had its origins in the Antiochene Rite, but eventually became 'byzantinized', to the point where its Antiochene origins are only a footnote reference in most discussions of Rite today.)

The following is a list of the Eastern Catholic Churces and the Traditions associated with each:

Alexandran Tradition:
Coptic Catholic Church, Ethiopian Catholic Church.

Antiochian Tradition:
Malankar Catholic Church, Maronite Catholic Church, Syrian Catholic Church.

Armenian Tradition:
Armenian Catholic Church.

Byzantine Tradition:
Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church, Belarussian Byzantine Catholic Church, Bulgarian Byzantine Catholic Church, Czech Byzantine Catholic Church, Croatian Byzantine Catholic Church, Greek Byzantine Catholic Church, Hungarian Byzantine Catholic Church, Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church, Melkite Byzantine Catholic Church, Romanian Byzantine Catholic Church, Russian Byzantine Catholic Church, Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, Slovak Byzantine Catholic Church, Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic Church.

Chaldean Tradition:
Chaldean Catholic Church, Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.

You may want to look at these site for more detail on the individual Churches:

www.cnewa.org/ecc-catholiceastern.htm [cnewa.org]

www.byzantines.net [byzantines.net]

Hope this helps.

Deacon El

Welcome Berean!

Hope your visits here are fruitful and that you find a comfortable home with us . You do have fellow coutrymen on the forum here, so be reassured you are in good hands. OOps, I mean women

I think for myself being raised Southern Baptist, when the Good Lord led us to the Eastern Catholic Church, it was like the Scriptures literally jumped off the pages at me.

The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great, both from the third century, is actually the Liturgy of St. James the Apostle only more organized. So the Byzantine Churches have celebrated the same Liturgy for 2000 years. That in itself blew me away. The Liturgy of ST. James is celebrated daily in many monasteries around the world, and in many churches once a year on his feast day. However, the music is so antiquated it is hard for readers to keep up with only doing it once a year.

Being grounded in Scripture, I am a preachers kid, I found the celebration of the Liturgy to be delightful, as Scripture is either referenced or used a combination of more than 220 times during the Liturgy. Of course I didn't know that at the time.

The Liturgy is divided into two parts, the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. One of the neat things in our Melkite Church is the gathering of the people in the church as the Word is read. Everyone, well almost everyone leaves the pews and gathers around the Gospel as it is read, as when Christ would teach the people and they would come to hear his words.

As Catholics we worship God with everypart of our being and I truly feel that it is never more evident than attending a Divine Liturgy.

Pani Rose

Thanks for your help so far, a lot to digest here .

Does each Eastern Church have their own "pope" for lack of a better word in my vocabulary?

Do local churches have much autonomy?

In the links below you may find reference to St. Cyril and Methodius being equal to the apostles, the reason is they developed a Slavonic alphabet and translated the books which were necessary for the celebration of the divine services: the Gospel, Epistles, Psalter, and collected services, into the Slavic tongue. This occurred in the year 863. But, they went on to translate the whole of Scripture for them. So they are known as the great evangelizers. Also, this is where you get the term Cyrillic language.

Here are seveal links that might help:

This is about the Melkite Patriarch and goverment
http://www.melkite.org/sa34.htm

The first is on iconography
http://64.4.30.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=0766dc2a2ae916e3d486b6213cd97db6&lat=1091624273&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2edreamwater%2eorg%2fedu%2fpassaic%2fhistory%2ehtm

The second of Byzantine Spritituality
http://64.4.30.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=0766dc2a2ae916e3d486b6213cd97db6&lat=1091624273&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2edreamwater%2eorg%2fedu%2fpassaic%2fhistory%2ehtm

Maybe this will kind of explain some of the history
http://64.4.30.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=0766dc2a2ae916e3d486b6213cd97db6&lat=1091624273&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2edreamwater%2eorg%2fedu%2fpassaic%2fhistory%2ehtm

Note that there are basically three "categories" (for lack of a better word) of Eastern Churches:

Eastern Catholic: These Churches are in communion with the Bishop of Rome (i.e. the Pope). They have their own Patriarchs who have jurisdiction over them, but the ultimate authority for them, like Roman Catholics, is the Pope. How much autonomy each Church has is a question open to much debate.

Orthodox: These Churches are not in communion with Rome (of course, they would say that Rome is out of communion with them). Each Church is autonomous, with it's own Patriarch. The Patriarch of Constantinople has some honor as the Patriarch of "2nd Rome", but ultimately that honor does not translate into jurisdictional authority.

Oriental Orthodox: These Churches are set up similar to the Orthodox - they have their own Patriarchs and their own jurisdictions. I believe that the Patriarch of Alexandria has some honor for these Churches, but I'm not really sure.

A great resource on the make-up and history of the Eastern Churches can be found in Ronald Robinson's "The Eastern Christian Churches". The entire book can be found online at:

http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-introduction.htm

Welcome to the Byzantine Forum, Pastor![ Berean ] You come like a breath of fresh air!

If you wish to learn about Eastern Christianity this is the place. I would suggest you check out the websites people often list in the posts as I have found them most helpful. I have not been on the forum very long, but have really apprecated the posts and interaction involved. I have learned much. We have a regular poster from Scotland with us also. I did go to your profile and checked out your website. Glory to God in Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

Please take note of the prayer topic thread too. You will see many posts regarding prayer needs and shared answer to prayers. Good Day to you in Ireland from Washington State, U.S.A.

In the Name of Jesus,


Porter...aka Mary Jo..whose grandmother was born in County Cork. <><

Thank you for your kind welcomes. I don't suspect that I will be converting , but your welcomes have been refreshing.

Thank you for your kindnesses.

Roger

Roger, I am sure we realize that and we also know, from what you are saying on the vaious posts, you are not here to convert us.

Good idea to wait and see all the other responses you get to your questions. It takes a while for people to post and the Byzantine forum includes Eastern Catholics(of various rites) Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterians, and other Christians. There are so many of us from various backgrounds and churches on the forum. We have priests, monks, deacons, and seminarians, deacon's wives, and former teachers and present teachers, homemakers, old and young people, scholars, musicians, a funeral director who is great at expressing profound spirituality and (you name it).

Many of us are also here to learn. In order to answer some questions there are those who do a little research in order to be authentic in their answers. It takes time, so hang around a while... and read through some of the other threads while you are here.

In Christ,


Mary Jo...prayerfully.

Hey Roger,

We aren't concerned about whether you are here to convert or be converted. You are here because God has revealed another part of faith to you. If we don't walk through the doors when God opens them, we usually miss out on a great pearl that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has made for us. His wisdom is everywhere around us, in all places and filling all things, so enjoy the Spirit filled conversations we have here and hope you learn a lot just like we do.

God bless you,
Pani Rose

I would not, by any means, be an ecumnist. But I am interested in learning and am grateful for your reception of me.

Roger

Berean,

I am looking for a source of Connemara Marble beads for the rosaries and other prayer beads I sell on my site. It is nearly impossible to obtain connemara beads in the states - unless one has 'connections' in Ireland. If you have any sources over there that you could refer me to, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Thanks,
Tammy

Have you tried contacting the Veritas bookshops?

I usually see those rosary beads in tourist areas though. However, I will keep my eyes open for you.