www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Does the Byzantine Forum contribute to global terrorism?

Well, that got your attention, didn't it? Let me explain my question.
The current issue of Time magazine has a cover story, "the Struggle Within Islam", a very informative and interesting piece about the growth of radical violent Islam and the moderates struggling to limit that growth. Several moderate Muslims are quoted to the effect that the actions of the United States since 9/11 have contributed to the growth of violent interpretations of Islam and have made the task of peace-loving Muslims more difficult.
Such actions include:
1] the bombings and invasions of two Muslim countries and the accompanying deaths of Muslim civilians.
2] the arrest and subsequent jailing of Muslims without formal charges, legal representation, or bail, often on very flimsy grounds.
3] continued American unconditional support for Israel and its oppresive tactics against the Palestinian people.
4]photographs and other evidence of the torture and abuse of Muslim prisoners.

What does this have to do with the Forum? Well, in recent months there have been numerous posts on various threads that:
1] claim -contrary to Catholic teaching- that Muslims worship, not the One God, Creator of all, but a] a pagan moon god or b] Satan.
2] describe Muslims as "terrorists", making no distinction between radical Jihadists and moderate Muslims.
3] called Muslims "a cancer" that must be destroyed [I know the poster will say he was referring only to terrorists, but it could certainly be read the way I have stated it.]
4] called the "nuking of terrorists" a "good idea".
If I may digress, this last post is most appaling on a Christian website. What does he think, that the terrorists live in the isolated kingdom of Badistan and we can take care of the problem with one bomb? Terrorists are civilians who live with their wives and babies and relatives and neighbors in villages, refugee camps and cities in the Islamic world and indeed, in the West. Last time I checked, the willingness to incinerate vast numbers of innocents with a weapon of mass destruction to accomplish a percieved good end was the mark of a terrorist, not that of a Christian.
But back to my topic:
Let's say you are a young Muslim surfing the net who has developed an interest in Middle Eastern expressions of Christianity. You stumble onto the Byzantine Forum, looking for information about the Melkites, Syrian Orthodox, and Chaldeans. You see threads about Muslims, and of course you check them out. What is your reaction to the sorts of posts I have listed? Are you not appalled by the hateful venom spewed by Christians, some of who appear to want to annihilate you and yours? Are you not then more open to the Jihadist message? Has the Byzantine Forum just helped create a terrorist?
Think about it.
-peace and good, Daniel

Iconophile,

I fully agree with what you said. It is quite sad for me to see the support of a Christian holy war against Islam, as I have seen in here, and seeing that the comments posted here could be used to help the spiral of hate continue. What you say is valid -- a Muslim looking in here will be able to say, "See, the hate of Christianity is apparent. They are terorists, supporting nuclear war against innocents."

I have tried to limit my comments in here, because what I would say, people know already. The same comments I protested against have continued. But I must stand in and support your wise post.

Pax
Henry

I have to say I agree with what you say 100%! Seems that Rome would too, if you read the documents from Vatican II, the Catechism and listen to what the Pope has had to say. But then I have noticed that the so called "liberals" aren't the only "cafeteria" Catholics, the conservatives and traditionals are just as bad and maybe worse about that. Moe

I still maintain that there is a big difference between Muslims who are peaceful, and terrorists. The terrorists are criminals and need to be caught/detained/killed, whatever it takes to stop them. That could be done without harming peaceful people, but it's long past time the peaceful Muslims helped in putting an end to the terrorists. Of course, we could just follow 1960s logic and ignore everything bad - "all you need is love" ROFL

When you realize that the single entity that has used nuclear weapons against its enemies, is that nation which has been called in this very forum "the last bastion of Christianity".

Is Christianity a religion of Peace? I would say so. But with so many wars right now, who has the time to be a Christian?

Is Islam a religion of War? I do not know if it is so more or less than Christianity, what I do know is that I cannot judge a religion by its followers or alleged followers. With people like Hitler or Reagan or Bush calling themselves Christian, I would need to rank Christianity among the lowest scumbags this world has suffered.

In the same way, the fact that Osama Bin-Laden and Co. claim to follow Islam does not negate the millions upon millions of followers of Islam that are so with a sincere heart and mind as their way to relate to God and to be a better person and to build a better world.

I may not agree with their conclussions, but I do respect their principles and uphold their right to pursue them in peace.

That Islam, just as Christianity, is an engine for progress and well-being is evident for those who realize that "history" goes back for more than a couple of weeks. Islamic culture has given us brilliant contributions to Mathematics, Chemistry, Astronomy, Medicine, Architecture, and many other fields of human knowledge and culture.

I do not know if this forum has promoted terrorism or not. I see with sadness, that it certainly has failed to promote healing and reconciliation.

That is bad enough.

Shalom,
Memo.

I don't see much promotion of anything in the posts so far except simple minded blather. If you have something constructive to say, then say it.

Hitler, Bush, and Reagan in the same breath? Give it a rest. You seem to have lost your mind.

Western Europe and North American have been officially pagan for centuries. We have an uphill battle in trying to convert the peoples in these nations. But there is one great big difference between Western Europe and No. America and a majority of Muslim nations. No one receives violent persection for not being this or that religion. I support there is something romantic about pretending that all Muslims are peace loving and benign and would never harm anyone except for our evil actions against them. If you think that is so I invite you to move to Iran or better to Sudan or Uzbekistan and challenge the government there or try to build a Church there.

If your opinion is correct come back and tell us about it.

All I ask is a little sanity in your approach. I've written several times about wise and compassionate Muslims I have known personally but don't give us your whining foolishness about the benignity of the butchers in so many of these Muslim dominated countries.

Tell us about the last time a group of Christians hi jacked any mode of transportation and slaughtered everyone on it. Or better yet, why not go find Osama bin Laden and tell him that Jesus Christ is Lord.

O, and Daniel, you are indeed a poop.

Dan L

No matter what the US gov't does, or what we (as Americans and our First Amendment rights) say here will not contribute to world terrorism. If a terrorist chooses to run a car or an airplane into a building they do it out of free will. No one or a phrase that they see on the internet will deter them.

If we change our attitude to please the terrorists the terrorists have won.

One more thing, and I should have written it before. Some of you don't know what you are writing about. In God's mercy He lets you continue to blather on and pretend that you are real intellects. But just shut up, please. Do us a favor and go soak your heads. You make me sick with your comparisons of Reagan, Bush, and Hitler. You don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps it would have done you all good to live a few years in Auschwitch or in a Siberian Gulag. Then you might be able to come back and lecture us. You offend me.

Dan L

Iconophile,
You do a great service by recognizing the lack of charity and true Christian witness in this forum. There are a number of "intellectuals" who are really just lonely and arrogant people, who in turn, hate other people and use the forum to disguise their hatred as some sort of intellectual superiority. They are all for free speech unless you challenge their haughtiness--then look out--they will gang up on you and start slandering you from the comfort of their anonymity. Some of these folks spend so much time in this forum and other forums, that it makes you wonder what kind of lives they lead. Couldn't this time be used feeding the poor or serving the least of our brothers? We all know that "Christian" Serbian Orthodox slaughtered Muslim Kosovars in the past ten years. I know. I worked with these Kosovar refugees--you'd be amazed at the evil "Christians" do, even in modern times. Iconaphile, don't let these pseudo-intellectual name callers get to you. We all know there is good and evil in every religion, because there's good and evil in every person. Glory be to Jesus Christ!

I don't know, Mike.
I posted the original quote about nuking the terrorists.
Vladimir Putin made the statement after the school massacre.

I saw on CNN that he attended the funeral of some children who were killed, and he blessed himself Right to Left. Now if a curious Muslim saw that and THEN came to our forum, he would definitely believe the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics were out to nuke Muslims! Uh oh. If we can't log on tomorrow I'll know why.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
part b:

What is this link some make between Bush and Hitler anyway? For years we were attacked overseas by terrorists, and the WTC was hit the first time during the Clinton Admin. Nothing was done to stop the 'terrorists'or increase our safety.
George Bush is dealt a blow on 9/11 and he deals with it by fighting back. He increases security in the US, more investigative work is going on to locate and destroy cells around the world. Arrests are made and a murderous radical dictatorship is overthrown, replaced with the beginnings of a democracy. Is there fighting? Sure! Remember our own democratic society was violently working out the kinks well into the 1970's and still is to a point- 200 years after the signing of the Declaration. There weren't as many car bombings, but there were deadly gun battles, burning of the White House, civil war with young armies on both sides, women thrown in jail and tortured for wanting the right to vote, firehoses, lynchings etc etc etc. It hasn't always been so cushy in America. Freedom was fought for and won right here at home.

If the battle cry is 'Its about the Oil' maybe the tree huggers can live without oil, but the rest of the country would literally starve to death without it. If the battle cry is jobs and health care - look around. No system is perfect. 9/11 slammed us. It hurt our economy. I am surprised there is any growth at all. I don't see the Hitler connection at all, and only in America can we publicly humiliate a president like we have and get away with it.

OK Dan, I'll shut up

Marya

Marya,

You are correct. These people hide behind Christian charity and humiliates people all the time. I call someone a poop because he acts petulant and accuses people of bad motives. He gets all defensive to the point of starting another entire thread about it. What a cry baby!

I don't claim to know how to respond to the evil that occured three years today. What about the millions in Sudan, the hundreds of thousands in Iraq, the continuous murderous bombings in Israel, etc. etc. What's to be done about this? Has this country been given power by God simply to sit by and watch evil take place all the time? I don't know.

Perhaps we ought to sit by and watch all of this happen. A Democratic President, FDR didn't think we should sit around and watch evil happen. Was he wrong? A very respected pastor friend of mine told me his agony in deciding to be a Conscientious Objector during WWII. I respect a courageous decision like that. I don't agree with it, but I respect it. He never ever thought of calling FDR a Hitler.

Should Serbia have reacted to the Kosovo (Albanian) terrorists who had been attacking them for years? I do think they went beyond what they needed to do in order to survive but didn't they have a right to defend themselves? Don't we have the right today to call evil evil? I believe we do? I really don't care what people call me. When Muslims act in a righteous way I will say they are righteous. When Christians act in a righteous way I will say they are righteous. When either act in an evil way I will call them evil.

I wish we could vote for Alan Keyes. But he isn't running. The second best choice is Bush because at least we know what he stands for and he is consistent.

Dan L

As much as I enjoy this forum, I don't think it has anywhere near that kind of power or influence. I would be greatly surprised if ANY Muslims read it, much less change their behavior because of it. In fact, I seriously doubt that most Latin Rite Catholics even know or care that there are Eastern Churches, Catholic or Orthodox. If pride goes before a fall - and excess ego could be called pride - someone is in great danger of landing squarely on his Democrat mascot.

Daniel, the Catholic teaching is a Triune God. We've been through this before. And the Church has been through Councils and serious Trinitarian disputes to proclaim that Triune God. If you dispute the Church teaches a Triune God, I would suggest you study the Catholic faith and especially the Church Fathers bit more. This has everything to do with reason and the Holy Spirit rather than hate.

The God of Islam is most definitely NOT a Triune God, no matter what sort of projections or twisting of doctrine is attempted to get it to fit, and by the admissions and statement of faith of Islam as contained in the Koran. They know it, and we who profess to be orthodox know it. We have a basic disagreement. This has nothing to do with hate and wishing brutal death on our brothers [which they remain in spite of our basic disagreements].

I agree with ByzanTN. While we would like to think all of our armchair pontificating has great effect, I think he has a realistic picture.

Agua,

I was wondering if Agua Secreta is your real name. Also, I'm not familiar with the city and state "South Eastern" USA. Do we know that there is good and evil in every person?

More to the point and I'll ignore much of your post because you really don't know me, can you suggest some areas to which we might give to help the poor. Particularly since this thread is on "Global Terrorism" do you know some constructive ways to help people who are victims of terrorists? I believe you are serious about wanting us to help. Can you show us some more ways?

Your friendly pseudo-intellectual and lonely arrogant man,

Dan L

Excerpted from original post:

So, from your post it would seem that terrorists are just ordinary people who live 9 to 5 day jobs, being productive citizens and are essentially harmless civilians. That definition would describe most Americans.....Perhaps those same "civilian" terrorists are harmless to their immediate family around them, though quite harmful to those whom they target including the husbands, wives and babies of their enemies.

steve

Dear Diak,

My take on Daniel's post is not any claim that Muslims worship a Triune God, but, as Judaism, and Christianity, Islam is a monotheistic religion.

You are correct in every way that Christians worship a Triune God. Thanks be to God and the Church Fathers, who fought the battles of orthodoxy for us.

Frankly, the tone of this thread has turned nasty. With all repect to the First Amendment, I think it's time to give this a rest.

Paul

Paul,

It did not turn nasty until Iconophile started the thread. That was his intention.

Apparently Canadian women don't find Muslim sharia all that benign.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131715,00.html

Dan L

My brother Paul, I agree with your parting conclusion. Both the initiation of this thread and many of the responses have not been forwarded in a Christian sense of charity and brotherly dialogue. But to say all three worship "a" montheistic God is most definitely not the same as claiming one worships THE triune God, one God in three divine persons.

With that I will also like Paul recuse myself from any further discussion here.

Dear Friends,

What I find interesting is how our own press up here is starting to go out against "Islam" in general (even in a veiled manner, no pun intended).

We had a case of some Muslim children that were taken away from their Muslim parents by the children's aid (for reasons unknown but it looks like they were abused).

A Muslim association began to demonstrate against the Christian foster home the kids were placed in.

But then the Christian parents began buying Hallal food for the children and started taking them to Mosque etc.

The newspaper, Canada's national one, basically told the association to "get a life" and that this is a multicultural society etc.

I've never seen that kind of commentary before.

Perhaps this kind of thing is unavoidable, I mean connecting people's behaviour to their religion and imputing negative motives to a religious community etc.

We'll see how that develops.

Alex

"The tragic experience of recent generations has brought to humanity an intense thirst for peace. Peace is now considered a good higher that many ideals for which people formerly gladly shed their blood. Contributing very much to this is the fact that war is not what it often was in the past, that is,a conflict between injustice and justice, but has become a conflict without meaning between injustice and injustice.The experience of falsehood and hypocricy,which the injustice of various parties has used to appear just in the eyes of its followers, has caused people to lose faith in the existence of justice and to fail to see anything before them that is worthy of defending. Thus war, in any form, seems to be something completely absurd.
This reluctance on the part of humanity for any kind of conflict would have been something admirable if it were the offspring of spiritual health.But today when everyone is speaking of peace and unity,self-love and hatred,injustice and falsehood, ambition and greed, are at their zenith." Kalomiros

I thought this would be insightful chad

It is.

Dan L

I like that and it is insightful. I think one of our problems today is a lack of understanding of charity. Charity is love, yes, but it is also charity to uphold the right teachings of our faith handed to us from the Holy Spirit through the apostles. Charity also involves having the discernment to distinguish between good and evil, along with the ability to label either for what it is. Much of the use of the word "charity" that I encounter among Christians today is utter foolishness. Charity is not an empty-headed acceptance of everything that comes along without comment. So the next time someone says you are being uncharitable, examine their words and discern if they even have an idea of what the word means.

Dear Friends,

The quote from Kalomiros is interesting, but really only applicable to the West.

The religiously-based terrorists really DO understand their war as based on the paradigm of justice vs injustice, even if the West doesn't.

The West has no stomach for "good vs evil" and doesn't get excited by such issues that its moral relativism has long sinced expunged from its soul.

What's left of it, anyway . . .

Alex

Then you agree with the Kalomiros quote.

I think the underlying issue of this thread has merit. I wish that it had been presented in a straightforward manner but it was doomed from the start by the polemical way it was presented.

By and large the West has developed into an anti-culture. Nothing but money really matters. It is a shame. The response by some who claim Muslim heritage (is that a safe way to say it) is horrendous and evil. Furthermore, the desire to either take over or be at war with, which is basic Muslim operating principles, has to be the major reason the radicals find solace in Islam when they do such things.

I'm greatly encouraged by some peace loving Muslims who finally seem to be speaking out. They are a small voice but they are at least a voice. How might Christians regain a voice in our own land which would speak against the culture of death? I think one starting point is the defrocking of priests and bishops who sustain a culture of death by protecting pedophiles and homosexualists, but that is only one starting point.

Dan L

My only point in starting this thread was to prompt some reflection among those who post messages that could be perceived as anti-Islamic. Remember that this is an open forum, that anyone can read our messages. I don't think my theoretical Muslim is so far-fetched. I was trying to promote a little more responsible approach to posting.
And Steve- my point was not that the terrorists are harmless civilians but that they live surrounded by harmless civilians and thus any act of war that uses weapons of mass destruction -which are supposed to be bad, right? Oh yeah, unless WE are the ones using them - would be inherently genocidal.
And Dan- I see no need to respond to your silliness and namecalling, reminiscent of my four year old. You are doing a fine job of making a fool of yourself without me.
And Diak- of course Christians worship a Triune God, but we also worship One God, remember? As monotheists, we are united in this with Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, and others.
And finally I agree that there is a great struggle between good and evil in this age. I do not, however, agree with those who see the USA and the rest of the modern West as the obvious
good guy in the struggle; the line is drawn through all of our hearts, not by religious and political boundaries.
-peace and good, Daniel

Dear Iconophile,

Of course, you are correct in saying that we share a belief in a single Divinity with other faiths.

This is clearly affirmed by the Catholic Church and Vatican II.

And if one wanted to push this further, one could even make the argument that the Christian East has a liturgical focus on all Three Divine Persons of the Trinity, whereas the Catholic West focuses primarily on the Father - as Fr. Karl Jungmann said.

Ironically, what led to the division between East and West was actually a different understanding of the Trinity Itself.

It was almost as if the two sides accused each other of worshipping a different God than what the Fathers and Councils defined . . .

Alex

Alex, perhaps you are referring to Fr. Josef Jungmann, the eminent Jesuit liturgist?

His book The Place of Christ in Liturgical Prayer is one of my all-time favorites in comparative liturgy. He looks at both East and West and the anaphoral focus of various traditions. Very enlightening reading.

Daniel,

You write as if you are the first to discover these truths. I see you are still whining about my accurate description of you. Sigh...

Dan L

Dear Diak,

Yes, you are right . . .sorry!

Could you do something about the two Daniels here?

We need them to stop going at each other in order to better focus on the REAL enemy!

Alex

Alex,

As you know the real enemy is Satan. Two expressions of this enemy are Western Materialims and radical violent Islam. That helps clarify the situation I should think.

Dan L

Dear Professor Dan,

Either way, we're on the horns of a real dilemma here . . .

Have a great evening!

Alex

While I agree with you that anyone can read our messages, it's likely that they probably don't bother. Byzantine Christianity is not of great interest to much of the world. I have had Latins visit Divine Liturgy and most say, it's boring, it's too long, it's too repetitive, the music is strange - it goes on and on. Fortunately, some do stumble upon the East or attend a Divine Liturgy and it's like the Holy Spirit starts a flame in the soul. The eyes are opened, and a great appreciation of the beauty and depth of the Liturgy occurs. That's the truly wonderful thing. Of course, there are those who attend because of ethnic affiliations, but some of them also have no real appreciation of the treasures before them. I think it takes a special kind of person to appreciate the East. But I am not worried about vast numbers of non-Byzantines finding offense on the forum. They either don't know or don't care it's there.

Friends,

If we believe the Trinity. If we believe in the Divinity of Christ. If we understand that these two dogmas are both denied by Islam. If we are aware of the 1400 years of violence between the two religions virtually all of which was begun by Islam's aggression. If we take seriously the sorrow expressed by many Muslims over the bad behavior of others. If we take this all into account I think a little honest reflection is in order. I don't know anyone who gives America a pass on idealogical grounds. Western Materialism is probably a worse opponent than Islam to Christianity. Why we should be dishonest about either is beyond me, but that is what some posters here are asking us to be.

Dan L

Dear Daniel Iconofile,

I think much of what you have said is from the worldly perspective to promote peace, social justice and moral values and love from a more humanistic evaluation.

What if you are wrong and people believe a falsehood as a result of your opinions, particularly if as monotheists Muslims do not worship the same Holy Trinity on in essence consubstantial and undivided? What if we are not united with them and you seek to united that which cannot be united?

From the beginning of creation and so often in Holy writ there is much said of separation.

Genesis 1:4
God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Ephesians 5:11
Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

You don't want to be surprised nor should you want others to be surprised.

There can be wisdom for many in the silence of humility.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Dear Friends,

One could posit that some religions can be seen to be promoting violence.

One could legitimately argue that case for Islam, to be sure.

But have not Christians committed unspeakable acts of violence throughout the centuries?

When a Russian Orthodox Tsar came back from a military campaign where he ravaged a Russian Orthodox city, a sainted fool-for-Christ held up to him a piece of bloodied meat.

The Tsar looked at him and said, "What are you doing? I don't eat meat during Lent!"

"Then why do you drink the blood of Christians?" the saint asked.

When it comes to terrorism, religion alone is not enough to explain fanaticism. We need to look at things like culture and more materially-based issues to explain them.

Alex

Perhaps some here can give an answer.

Dan L

They shoot children, don't they?

by Dennis Prager
Townhall.Com

According to The New York Times, when the terrorists took over the
Russian elementary school, they shouted "Allahu akbar" ("Allah is the
greatest").

Does this surprise you, dear reader? Does it shock you that the people
who deliberately attacked a school and then systematically shot and
blew
up little children did so in the name of Islam?

Unfortunately, the question is rhetorical. Having targeted little
children for death, there is no atrocity, no barbarity, no act of evil
that the human race cannot imagine fanatical Muslims committing.

We have already become almost inured to:

The slaughtering of innocent human beings as if they were animals while
chanting Muslim prayers.

The reintroduction of black slavery and genocide against blacks.

The murder of daughters and sisters for imagined or real sexual
behavior.

The stoning of women accused of adultery.

The burning of Hindu temples and Christian churches, and the
destruction
of among the greatest Buddhist sculptures.

The ban on women driving cars or learning to read.

The idolization of young men who blow themselves up while murdering and
maiming innocent non-Muslims -- and the theology of sexual rewards in
heaven for doing so.

These are some of the atrocities being committed by Muslims in
different
parts of the world today.

It is, of course, only a minority of Muslims that engages in such
horrors, but it is only Muslims who are doing all these things.
Christians aren't -- even among Palestinians, there are no Christian
terrorists. Jews aren't -- and when one Jew did deliberately kill
innocent Palestinians in 1994, the rest of the Jewish world was
horrified and demonstrated its revulsion in word and deed. Buddhists
aren't -- despite the destruction of Tibet by the Chinese Communists,
no
Buddhists have murdered innocent Chinese, let alone non-Chinese who
deal
with China.

With the psychopathic cruelty at a Russian elementary school, have we
reached the point where people of goodwill can ask serious questions
about Muslims and Islam? Or are any challenging questions still to be
dismissed as "Muslim bashing" or, even more absurdly, "racist," as if
religion were a race?

The truth is that everyone with a conscience has questions about
Muslims
and Islam. But the most powerful religion in America, the religion of
tolerance, has rendered it almost impossible to ask any such questions.
Most people are so afraid of being branded intolerant that the most
natural and goodhearted questions are only posed by the handful who
have
the courage to do so (usually conservative Christians).

But good Muslims should welcome fair questions and not dismiss them as
manifestations of bigotry. Most Americans have no a priori view of
Islam. As far as they are concerned, it is one more religion that its
practitioners ought to be able to practice in peace just as the members
of every other faith in America do.

I know I have questions, and I know they come from a non-prejudiced
place. And I can back up this claim.

Between 1982 and 1992, I moderated an extremely popular weekly radio
show in Los Angeles on ABC radio. It featured a Roman Catholic priest,
a
Protestant minister and a rabbi. Beginning about 1987, I regularly
invited Muslim representatives, marking the first time that Muslims
were
given such wide exposure on mainstream American radio or television. I
developed such a good rapport with the Muslim community and its leaders
that I was repeatedly invited to speak at the Islamic Center of
Southern
California, one of the largest and most prestigious institutions and
mosques in the country.

And I in turn invited Muslim leaders to speak before major Jewish
institutions.

Given this background, it is with the greatest sadness that I feel
compelled to ask two questions:

First, is there anything in Islam or in the way Islam is now taught and
practiced that dulls the conscience and thereby enables many religious
Muslims to engage in or support atrocities that other groups, religious
and secular, find inconceivable?

Second, the laudable condemnations of Islamic terror made by the
Islamic
Center notwithstanding, why are there virtually no public
demonstrations
of Muslims against the unspeakable evils committed by its adherents?

And while posing questions, here are two for liberals: Why are almost
the only people asking these questions aloud conservative and
religious?
Where are you when it comes to acknowledging evil?

Yes, some people do shoot children, and good people have a right to ask
why.

END

Dear Dan,

When Christians went to war with each other, they carried flags bearing Crosses.

I believe that the Christian religion is the superior moral code above all others.

That is what makes Christian cruelty so reprehensible.

As one person has said, "Christians hate as only Christians can - for the love of Jesus."

One thing that is occurring today is that we seem to have returned to the time when Christians lived in fear of Muslim attacks and frequently prayed in formaly liturgical services for protection against the Islamic invader.

That could be a spiritually healthy thing for Christians as a way to reawaken spiritual awareness (as well as the need for tight security).

The Kozaks who fought the Muslim Tatars and Turks were hailed by Greek Orthodox writers of their time as men of God and martyrs - when they died trying to liberate Christian slaves and prisoners, they were sure to go straight to Heaven!

The Kozaks knew that a fate worse than death awaited them should they be captured by their Muslim enemies.

This is why they prepared for the eventuality by, among other things, memorizing the book of Psalms.

This would give them a source of prayer, along with the Jesus Prayer, during their captivity so that they did not renounce Christ.

St John the Ruthenian (O Aghios Ioannis o Rossos) was a Kozak taken prisoner and then sold into slavery into a Turkish family.

He often went to a boarded-up Orthodox Church in the vicinity and stood outside singing the Psalms that he had memorized.

He once performed a miracle of having a plate with food transported mystically to another location - the head of the household brought the plate with him when he returned!

This family later converted to Christianity and helped build St John's first shrine at Procopion.

Other Kozak saints of the Turkish Yoke include St Pachomios of Patmos and St Paul the Ruthenian at Constantinople.

The Kozaks bore the same flag as did the Crusaders (notwithstanding the bad history between Orthodoxy and the Crusaders).

We are ourselves today referred to as "Crusaders" by the Islamist terrorists.

It is in faith in Christ that we can find the strength to defeat the "New Hagarenes."

Alex

Professor Alex,

You are dead on accurate. I shall spend my time studying more about these saints and in prayer. Please, God, let no more children die. Give us the courage to face the kind of enemy that would kill children. Give us wisdom to always love you and to love our enemies into submission or if the worst is called of us, to die for You. Teach how to protect Your children. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Dan L

Hello,


No, all 4 have a lot in common (4, we are taking about two generations of "Bush").

They're all heads of state. All 4 of them claimed to have the interest of their nation as their first priority. All 4 of them commited great attrocities against other people and justified themselves in that they were doing what was right for their nation.

They all justified the means with the ends. All 4 of them were equally wrong in this regard.

Oh, I'd love to, but he's been somewhat hard to find lately. I'd be honored beyond my wildest dreams to be part of the delegation that informed him of the forgiveness that we all Christians are eager to express to him, just as soon as we can find him.

I'd like to tell him that he was wrong, just as wrong as those he claims as his enemies, but just as I am not closing the doors of repentance and forgiveness for Mr. Bush, I will not close them for Mr. Bin Laden either.

Both of them are equally wrong, both of them are in equal need of forgiveness. Our Christian religion compells us to grant our share of forgiveness (God will do His part in His own time and manner) with equal urgency for both of them.

Shalom,
Memo.

You seem to miss one crucial element. Repentance. Be that as it may.

Your comments are general enough to be virtually meaningless. What leader in what phase of history would not bear the same guilt as you suggest? Stalin and Pope John Paul are on the same level. Curious.

Dan L

Memo,

I'm not sure the application of the principle is exactly correct but I would support you in such a move. I would find the action Christlike and would never condemn you for it. It sounds like something St. Francis did. Also it seems that Ananias did the same with one Saul of Tarsus in Damascus on that street called Straight. Are there Eastern example of such conviction?

If Osama would repent I should think that God was surely moving in that scene.

Dan L

Hi,

What attrocities has Pope John Paul committed against non-Catholics in order to benefit Catholics?

On the other hand, Stalin officially declared himself an atheist, so I cannot demand of him any sort of Christian values.

Shalom,
Memo.

I am coming to regret starting this thread, as it seems to be prompting not reflection but more venom...
Yes Alex, you are right about monotheism and the teaching of the Church [and welcome back].
It is the de fide teaching of the Catholic Church that man can with his reason, quite apart from Revelation, come to a knowledge of God. It is also de fide that knowledge of the Trinity can come only by divine Revelation.
This does not mean that the One God that one can know by reason is not the True God, only that one's knowledge of him is limited.
You know, while unlike Islam, there is little in the life of Christianity's Founder to lead one to the conclusion that Christianity is a violent Faith, there is an awful lot in the history of Christianity to lead to this conclusion. There is even more evidence in the history of the United States to lead to the conclusion that it is a violent nation, intent on empire, with no qualms about annihilating civilian populations to achieve its ends.
And while the West is again praying for protection against militant Islam, there is a very real difference in that no one speaks about the threat as being a judgement for our sins. Medieval men called Islam the "scourge of God"; I haven't heard any moderns say this. Curious, as modern Christians have been warning for so long that we will be judged by God for our sins. I remember that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson did hint at this right after 9/11, though their idea of "sin" was pretty narrowly focused -homosexuality and abortion, not militarism and economic oppression- and boy, did they back off when criticized! Where are our prophets?