www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Terribly worried about Israel

Yesterday I listened to Newt Gingrich and he was quite upset with President Bush. It had to do with the withdrawal of the Israeli troops from Lebanon. They should have been allowed to complete the destruction of Hezbollah. By not doing so, the confidence that has grown in the Arab world, is going to endanger everyone.

From what I gathered in the past days, Hezbollah decided that they will not withdraw their ammunition, but rather keep it from public view. In other words, place it wherever they want, as long as it cannot be seen by the people. Better I guess they not know that they are being used as human shields.

Hezbollar is declaring victory to the Arab world, and the Muslims are in ecstasy over that. The Shia's are going back into Lebanon in droves, with a complete indifference as to whether it is safe or not...as well as whether their life would be in danger in the future. Their exaltation over the idea that they can retake the land of Israel, (and start the restoration of their Caliphate), supercedes any fear they might have for themselves and their children. Of course, Hezbollah is giving them money to rebuild, and in their stupidity, (similar to that of the Germans before WW II), do not realize that it is blood money, and that they will be used as human shields for the advancement of Islam. The idea of triumphism supercedes everything...but then again, Islam teaches that whatever happens to a person, is one's fate.

Obviously the French, Germans and what not, who were so adamant about a UN force being placed in Southern Lebanon in order for the fighting to cease, are now quite hesitant on sending troops.

It is evident that they now realize that the situation is very unstable. Instead Muslim nations are quick to offer their troops. When Israel said that it is rediculous that nations that do not believe in it's existance, such as Malasia should be guarding the border, the response was that Israel has no right to state who should be guarding it. Turkey has also offerred to send troops, and I can't help but wonder why, considering that the best seller there is Mein Kampf?

Newt Gingrich is quite correct when he said it is the start of WW III. I cannot see it otherwise, and was praying quite a bit for Israel. Now that for me is unusual, since my prayers are usually for the whole Middle East and the sufferings in that whole area.

I personally am beginning to see no way out. If we were like, let's say the English of 80 or so years ago, we would pit the Sunni's against the Shia's in order to preserve our own peace. But we're not. We have different standards and those standards are being manipulated by Islam.

People can say whatever they want, but it all goes back to our dependancy on Middle East oil. There was no way that these Muslim nations could ever have the power they have, had it not been for the wealth our economic system has given them. Islam has no system. It always depended on Christians and others in order to thrive...so I have to laugh at the Muslims that say the West has persecuted them. Even worse, one Muslim said that we have been killing millions of Muslims and deserve the few deaths that have occurred through terrorist. Exactly where have we killed millions of Muslims?

What Hezbollah, (and that includes Iran and Syria), did win was the propaganda war...reminding me of Mussolini's troops taking over Ethiopia, as the League of Nations sat back doing nothing.

Zenovia

In what way is it similar?? Did Hezbolah invade Israel, topple it's government, and install an Imperial power's government in it's place?? Also, No one can conpapre Israel's military power which is dominant in the region to the poor state of Haile Selassie's government as compared to Italy. There are really no historical similiarities here. We should avoid the great temptation to make broad unhistorical generalizations in regards to the tragedy of this crisis which is a tragedy for the ordinary people on both sides. that WOULD be propaganda.

This is why when we build our house, and stop renting, we will have solar panels, wind mills, capacitors, and generators. We will totally be independent of the power grid.

I say that we should become independent of oil and invest in alternative energy sources. I say a news clip about a guy in Clearwater FL who has a car that runs on water.

I think the basic idea is that the water is split by electricity into Hydrogen and Oxygen and the car burns the Hydrogen.

Our only way to put the out of control situation in the Middle East in its proper place is to become independent of Arab oil.

Dear Brian,

I was not referring to the facts being similar. I was only referring to the reaction of the League of Nations to Ethiopia being similar to the reactions of the U.N. in regard to Israel.

We have to realize that the Arab countries have repeated that they are intent on destroying Israel. Israel never stated that it wants to destroy and take over Lebanon, Syria or Iran. The Arabs and Muslims in general have repeatedly claimed that they want to restore the Caliphate. Yet what is the reaction of the U.N.? It backs those that would be aggressors if the opportunity arose, rather than the one that is merely defending it's citizens.

Should the war had stopped immediately before all the destruction occurred, I would have understood it. That it was stopped now, after everthing was destroyed makes me feel as 'what was the point'. Nothing was gained, and it just becomes a prelude to another war. The next time though the war will be much worse because the confidence of Hezbollah is higher.

You know Brian, It's obvious Israel does not want to be in Lebanon. They left, remember? So why does Hezbollah need all those arms for? Certainly they aren't arming themselves for protection now are they? :p

I think it would be a lot better for Lebanon, if they were to sign a serious peace pact with Israel. They could make terms that would be beneficial to them economically, such as water rights, etc. Israel would give anything to have peace. But recalling all the murders of politicians before Syria left, we can understand that it is easier for the Lebanese to bow down to Islamic murderers than put their life at stake.

What is really problematic is that the Muslims live to die. The Christians will leave rather than endanger themselves and their family, but will the Muslims leave? I think not, which makes the religious/political state of Islam above and beyond the rights of the individual. Sort of like Nazism and Communism. At least to me.

Zenovia

Zenovia,
yes they left after MANY years of occupying Southern Lebanon and with always the threat by Israeli military officials and government officials that they could come back at any time and many ordinary Christian and Muslim Lebanese rightly or wrongly began to see Hezbollah as a protection against an occupying power. I don't support Hezbollah whatsoever but I think that Israel's massive overreaction and especially the bombings and killings in Beirut have completely undercut the emerging democratic Lebanese state which has just gotten ride of a similar occupying force in the guise of the Syrian army and also Israel's actions have greatly solidified in ordinary Lebanese minds that maybe Hezbolah can be their "protection" again, thus destroying what Israel's supposed sims in this adventure were in the first place.

Zenovia, do you ACTUALLY think that ordinary Muslims LIVE to die??? that they don't care about the lives of their children and families and that they ALL have a "martyr's" mentality?? That seems to be a great generalization that could only apply to those minority zealots in the Muslim community that have bought into the strange nad distorted view od history and life that Hamas teaches for example.

Brian,

What do you think of what Syria has done to Lebanon over the last thirty years? What do you think of what Hezbollah has done to it over the last decade or so? Do you really want that to happen to Israel as well? How long do you think people can survive when they are constantly under threat of being blown up by their neighbors? Why can't ne non-Muslim nation be left alone to survive in the midst of crazed Muslims?

I suppose if Israel no longer existed we would all wash our hands of Judaism and say a little pray for the people who once were.

CDL

It is very difficult to see Israel as the victim here. The true victims are the Lebanese people who, after years of civil war, have worked to rebuild their beautiful country only to have it blown to bits again by Israeli bombs.

Sam

Dear Dan,

Thanks for this post. I can't understand why no one understands the threat to Israel's existence?
While it is true that their tactics seem heavy handed at times, they are generally acting in self defense and self preservation. They are the ones who know how precarious their situation is surrounded by countries that make no qualms about wanting to wipe them off the face of the map.

Alice

CDL,
I think we as American Christians have been indoctrinated by our fundamentalist bretheren to believe that we must back Israel no matter what she chooses to do, or we will be damned by God Himself.

Simplistically, I liken Israel to a man who decides it is his God-given right to build his house in my yard, moving in his family and slowly pushing me up against the fence. The man has no regard for me or my family because he believes God favors him over me. Similar to what we did to Native Americans in the US- the difference being that Native Americans were a bit more passive than Muslims of the Middle East.
Sam

I believe that Israel is in possession of the Bomb and has the most powerful military in the region. One does not have to be a supporter of Hezbollah or any radical group like that to be a bit sceptical of the Israeli government and military portraying themselves as victims. One Israeli writer has said that this isn't about Israel or Hezbollah's survival but about who gets the best negotiating position.

Just to make things more interesting Syria regards Lebanon, Jordan, Israel/palastine as territory that was stolen from them by the Great Powers. Add also to this list parts of the SE Turkey and northern Iraq. As regards Palestine none of the neighbouring Arab states were going to allow an independant arab sate in Palastine in 1948. Transjordan annexed it's conquest and Egypt had a very repressive administration in Gaza that could have given the Israelis lessons. Israel forced Maronites, Melchite and Orthodox from their homes and lands and destroyed all apart for the Churchs, so they could not come home later. These extreme evangelicals supprt such actions as they dont recognise anyone as being Christians but themselves. They also ahve NO comprehension of the complexity of the history and politics of the region. I was so very pleased the Imans had such people chucked out of Afghanistan recently. They cause so much trouble for real Christians with their 1/2 baked rubbish.

Sam,

I reject that completely.

CDL

Dear Pavel,

You are correct that the situation is quite complex. However, let's not EVER fool ourselves to think that the Muslims are any more tolerant of Christianity than the Jews. Atleast our Jewish brethren, our elder brothers in faith, as Pope JPII called them, do not wish to see us and the whole world convert to Judaism.

My forefathers struggled for four hundred years under the Muslim/Ottoman occupation, and the bloodshed of Christians during that time is evident everywhere in Greece's history. Yet, Greece has now agreed to build, with government funds, a mosque for the immigrant Muslim population. I don't know of any Muslim country that would do that for Christians.

My forefathers were also a large minority population in present day Istanbul in the mid-twentieth century, but were systematically forced out. See this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom
These things happen. (Even the Ecumenical Patriarch is harrassed daily for the last vestige of Greeks to be out..and all this in one of the more 'moderate' Islamic countries). These forced out and displaced diaspora Greeks of Constantinople, Asia Minor, Alexandria,Egypt and Roumania atleast had a poor and small homeland,struggling in its new found independence, to allow them in. Is that not something that the Jews, a historically persecuted and displaced people, should also be guaranteed to have?

The Jewish people have suffered for millenia, and my Lord whom I love, and His Mother were Jews. I will never forget that. It has nothing to do with Evangelical Christians. It has to do with the Islamic mindset. It does not change, no matter how good and decent the common man might be, and no matter how much they potray themselves as being victims. Unless there is peace and stability, and more importantly, TRUST, in the region, everyone, Muslim, Jew and Christian, unfortunately, is a victim.

Alice

Some of the Emirs and Sultan of Oman in the Gulf area have given land to the Catholics to build Churches in recent times.

These fundamentalist dont know or care about anything that has gone on before in the region. They do not understand the shakers and movers of the region and how matters are resolved and understanding reached between the many different polical groups. They dont understand what constitutes these groups under sheiks and Patriarchs. The don't understand the legacy of centuries of Ottoman rule of medling by the various Great Powers of the past and present. They know nothing of the massacres of peoples and the forced relocations. In short they are more trouble than they are worth.