www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Terribly worried about Israel

What I'd dearly love to see in this forum when we discuss the issues of the Middle East is to discuss the issues of the Middle East based upon what people really think and not what they think their straw men really think. It would be nice to actually address what is actually happening.

If, for example, one wishes that Germany had been forced once again to give up major concessions after starting another war then it behooves the writer to say so. If that person wishes that the Jews had been given a large percentage of Germany after WWII let them say so and also suggest how it might have been done, how the Jews would have been given some assurance that they would not have been attacked by a post war Germany, and why Germany would not have been inspired, as they were follow the Versailles treaty, to redress their grievances upon Europe.

If, for example, a person does not believe that the people calling themselves Jews are actually Jews but are mongrals who deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth or be forced to assimilate into other nations let them say so. Let them show how this is righteous behavior on the part of non Jews and how in any event the Jews would put up with it and why they should.

If, for example, as has been stated, native peoples have a right to retain possession of a land and to throw out all interlopers let such people show how this is to be done, how one determines who the real native peoples are, and what's to be done with the interlopers. If we are discussing Native Americans who are the pure blooded anscestors of those who crossed the Berring Sea? How is one today to redress their grievances? Where are the rest of us supposed to live? Look at India one of the oldest continuing civilizations on earth. How does one distinguish the Harrapans from the Aryans today? How does one redress the grievances of the Herrapans and where are the Aryans to go?

Or look at the Middle East. Before their were Muslims there were Christians throughout the Middle East and South Asia. How does one distinguish them today? Where are the Muslims to go? For that matter, before the Christians their were Jews and before the Jews their were Canaanites, Philistines, etc. Some blitely claim that the Palestinians are really Philistines? Oh, really? Prove it. Even if you could what of the Canaanites and Jebusites and all sorts of others? If one could determine who presently are the pure ancestors of all of these native peoples then what? What is to be done with all who have come since?

Who has the right, let alone the ability, to determine such things?

You get the picture.

The greatest irritant of all though is this. Whenever we get into discussions like this invariably those who wish Jews did not exist come up the old canard, "Well the only reason Byzantine Catholics support Israel and every damned thing they do is because we've all been duped by Fundamentalist Protestant dispensationalism?" Do I really need to write why that is not only off the wall but insulting?

Could you please try another tactic? Please?

CDL

??

Did I say that? So if we disagree with their politics we must wish Jews never existed?

What follows that thinking? That we surely must have agreed with the Nazis in the 1940's?

Rather than react to a phrase out of context explain your own position.

CDL

Dear Pavel,

I don't know if the mention of 'fundamentalists' by you is in reference to the Evangelicals that are there to spread the Bible, or the Muslim fundamentalists, that want to impose Islam on everyone.

If it is the Protestant Evangelicals, I don't think that condemning another Christian religion, is bettering the situation at all. Remember that at one time, everyone in that part of the world were Christians, and it was not the Protestants that changed that situation. Better to have some elements of 'Truth' given to people as it is by the Evangelicals, than for them to receive no 'Truth' at all. At least that's how I see it.

As for the Muslims, there will always be a small group that will threaten the Christians, Buddhists, Hindu's, etc, while the officials will look the other way. :rolleyes:

Zenovia

Dear Brian you said:

I say:

That viewpoint of martydom is imposed on the Muslims. Of course they wish to live, at least inside of them, but are forced to accept their fate. If that fate is to be in an apartment building that hides missles and might be bombed by Israel, that is their fate. At least in their religious viewpoint. I couldn't help but wonder why the Prime Minister's eyes were swollen? Now none of the Israeli authorities were crying for the dead Israeli's? Could it have been guilt feelings on his part? Guilt feelings because those people were used as human shields and their deaths was beneficial as propaganda? In other words, they were the one's that became the human sacrifice.

I recall that in Kosovo, guarding the exits during the war were the turbaned one's...from Iran no less. This we didn't see, at least on CNN, but was shown in the Greek media. Basically what it meant, is that the Muslims must never leave a place. Once it is occupied by Muslims, it becomes sort of a 'holy' land. It must remain, or become once more Muslim territory.

Actually though, if one were to consider the extent of damage that occurred in Lebanon, it's quite amazing that only 1,000 civilians died. As I mentioned, the invasion of Normandy by us and England, killed 20,000 French civilians, and the German bombing of Belgrade alone killed 20,000 Serbs. Then again, Muslims are killing Muslims in the hundreds each month in Iraq...so relatively speaking, Israel has been quite humane.

Of course, Hezbollah is quick to post large posters on damaged area's stating 'Made in America'...and they are paying people to rebuild. Heaven forbid, they should cease to become the majority. Lebanon was Christian you know.

Zenovia

Dear Sam you said:

I say:

There is nothing wrong with what you say. The only problem is that everyone in the world could say the same thing. There isn't a people in the world that have not been forced out of their land by someone else.

You mention the American Indians. I will mention that every border that exists in Europe meant that some people had to be expelled. What happened in Yugoslavia recently, where Serbs were being kicked out of Croatian lands, and Croation and Muslims out of Serbian lands, etc., went on for centuries throughout the continent.

So if the Palestinians should have the right of return, then to be fair, everyone else should have that same right. Now I will start with the Greeks. They should be allowed, (yeah right, as if Turkey will ever do so), to go back to Istanbul, (former Constantinople), where they were in the majority 100 years ago. Then they should go back into Alexandria, Egypt, where they were expelled by Nassar. After all it always was a Greek city. Then they should be able to return to Izmir, (former Smyrna), and the coast of Turkey as well as in the Pontus in the Black Sea area. They were the majority in all these places, as well as in Southern Albania...where they are still leaving. The territory was taken over by communist Albania after WW II.

Then I think we should think of the Bulgarians. After all, they too had to leave in the hundreds of thousands...all the result of the Balkan wars. They can reoccupy Northern Greece, the Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia, (FYROM), Serbia, Croatia, etc.

Then there are the Germans. I believe one million of them had to leave Eastern Europe after WW II. What about the former Soviet Union nations?

Do you realize that what the Palestinians are saying is rediculous...and expansionist on the part of the Muslims? They want to reclaim Spain for heaven's sake. What makes you think they will stop at Israel? :rolleyes:

Actually, the difference is that everyone of these people had a land to go to when they were expelled...except of course the Jews. No one told them they had to remain in concentration camps, or suffer bombings etc. in order to either hold the land or go back to it. They were allowed to get settled in the country that took them in. That's what differenciates all other nations from Islam.

Zenovia

I can't believe that you are arguing about the relative "humanity" of "only" 1000 civilian deaths.

Dear Brian you said:
I say:

Of course I am. In order to keep the death toll that low, the Israeli's had to sacrifice some of their own people. Had they been willing to just freely bomb everyone, today they wouldn't be worrying about another war. Hezbollah would have ceased to exist. As it is, who knows what will happen in the future. :rolleyes:

Certainly Iran would never be that humane. Take a look at what's going on with the Shia's and Sunni's in Iraq. They're targeting civilians Brian. Watch the news!

Zenovia

Zenovia,

I DO watch and read the news from many sources although we may differ in our conclusions and perspectives about what we read

According to this perspective, Israel gets off rather easily. They bombed "humanely" to safeguard civilians but maybe, they needed to bomb more so that it would have prevented a supposed "WWIII" ????? Logic????? I agree with the Israeli writer Etgar Keret said on NPR recently that this conflict is not about the survival of Israel or Hezbollah but about who gets a better negotiating position around the table.

If one sets off for war without adequate preparation and without a desire to win one gets into real trouble. This is found in one of Jesus' teachings. Apparently many in Israel consider Olmert guilty of not knowing how to or having the desire to complete the task in Lebanon and as a result this indecision puts Israel in a precarious position.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=110481

Does this matter?

CDL

Dear Brian you said:

I say:

Let's look at it this way. When suicide bombers set out, who are they targeting? Soldiers or civilians?

When Hezbollah sends missles into Israel, who are they targeting? Soldiers or civilians?

When Hezbollah has missles hidden in civilian apartment homes, schools, hospitals, etc., and they know that Israel will respond, whose lives are being threatened? Soldiers or civilians?

When Israel tries to hit that missle, and it hits that apartment house, who then is to blame? Israel or Hezbollah?

When Israel is attacked by missles, and in order to protect it's civilian citizens it is forced to respond to Hezbollah, who has the upper moral hand... Israel that wants to protect it's civilians, or Hezbollah that intentionally plants its missles in civilian area?

Logic, simple logic! And by that I mean reasoning without passions! The truth is, according to your responses, it appears that Hezbollah is winning the progaganda war. Of course it's doing so at the expense of the lives of its own people.

Zenovia

Dear CDL,

Was it the Israeli government that was to blame, or world reaction to the war that was making Olmert hesitant in sending in ground troops? It seems that the problem has more to do with the way Israel withdrew from Lebanon years ago. It left without any peace guarantee's, so that Hezbollah was able to take over the Southern part of Lebanon. Of course the U.N. is useless. It was to disarm Hezbollah...but so much for that. :rolleyes:

Then again, maybe Olmert was trying to follow our example of bombing in order to soften up a target, and then sending in the troops. All in all, Israel didn't manage it's objective, unless it's objective was to drive the Shia's out of Lebanon. Yeah right! As if the Muslims could be driven out of anywhere. Notice how they are all rushing back, and being given money to boot.

I can't help but feel that one of the reasons for the failure was a 'tit for tat' on the part of Israel. Israel knows that Hezbollah and the Arabs in general want to destroy their economy, as well as threaten their lives so that they will get up and leave. Kind of in the way the Christians always do. So of course Israel responded in kind, (as they always do)...yet, the Muslims are never allowed to leave. They are instilled with a communal sense of 'triumphism', which supercedes any desire for individual security and comfort. This sense of 'triumphism' is continually emphasized to them, and keeps them going no matter how difficult their circumstances.

Then again, they have no business class, so there is no way they can better their situation in life, so they are forced in that sense, to accept readily whatever is told to them by their authority...in this case the Mullahs.

Very cult like I think!

Zenovia

Can this hate and lunacy be stopped? Thomas Sowell offers his alarm bell...

"After we, or our children and grandchildren, find ourselves living at the mercy of people with no mercy, what will future generations think of us, that we let this happen because we wanted to placate "world opinion" by not acting "unilaterally"? We are fast approaching the point of no return."

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell082306.php3