www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall ACROD communion with Byzantines?

Two separate incidents: in Moscow it was the Prince who took out the union, in Constantinople it was the people. The union was proclaimed only in 1451 or 2 and it ended as a footnote in 1484.

anastasios

I am continually amazed at how much time Bishop Tikhon is able to devote to internet discussions, given the size of the diocese he is shepherding.

Dear Jim,

I fear that you are measuring the things of God according to the wisdom of the world.

Why is growth of the parish necessarily a sign of the Church's success? The Church in the East bloc, especially Albania, was decimated. Perhaps it is telltale of who really seeks Christ that so few risked their position and lives to worship Him. Perhaps that was unto the glory of God. The canons anathametize (cut off or excommunicate) a Christian who rejects Christ even under fear of death.

I've often told people that "you need the Church, but the Church doesn't need you."

The reality is that nothing will happen to the Kingdom of God if all of the Orthodox or all of the Roman Catholic parishes are shut down for lack of participation. Even the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.

So I never worry for the Church. I do worry for the flock, those already in the Church. Their salvation requires that they love God and their neighbor. The loving of their neighbor is their evangelistic activity. If they fail to take it seriously, they will answer for it, not their neighbors.

Does the neighbor miss out? Of course. But what are we to change to entice them? Wouldn't it be a gimmick, in the end, if we enticed them with a party or picnic or a shortened liturgical practice, and then told them later that these were just enticements? Why not just accept that the true faith is neither stylish nor comfortable? How many Orthodox Christians or Eastern Catholics bothered to use even half of vacation day in order to attend the glorious feast of the Annunciation?

Do these growing Eastern Catholic parishes keep to the traditions or have they watered them down? I don't know, but you can compare them yourself with the stagnet Orthodox parishes. I suspect that in these booming parishes, as in so many "successful" Orthodox parishes, sacraments are dispensed to those who pay for them, regardless of whether or not they are regular attendees. In effect, a sort of club. If one has the club card, one may choose from the menu of services.

My favorite services are on the stormy, snowy, rainy, blustery days or the mid-week feasts when only the die-hards come out! They are the same ones whom you find ministering to the poor, visiting the sick, the widows, and the orphans and sponsoring the serious catechumens. This is the Church. The few people who remained to watch their savior die on the cross and the few who went to annoint His body, only to find the empty tomb!

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew, since when has the Church NOT measured its success? At every diocesan conference in the OCA in the west, detailed accounting reports are reviewed, and parishes may have to answer questions about their statistics. Advice is shared on how to improve. There are often sidebar discussions within the clergy itself addressing problem areas. It is too easy for clergy to hide behind blind obedience in order to silence dissent, instead of working issues through to community consensus. It's important for people to be empowered in the Faith by collaboration at some level. It is an especially American view that the Orthodox have great difficulty with, but it can be done. There are OCA parishes that are doing this, but not where I live.

Similar to what you have said, "God doesn't need Liturgy. People do". It is in the details that people, clergy and laity alike, can get bogged down. Many times people worry about what is the right way to do something, when there are many ways to do it, as long as it is done with a spirit of devotion and humility. Some examples: methods for making prosphora, methods for writing icons, methods for singing in worship. It's when people fail to enter into the spirit that things go south, especially when they insist on wordsmithing or political correctness. It is up to clergy to provide the example for laity to follow, and if they don't, people find answers other ways, not by blindly obeying.

Dear Anastasios:

Considering the fact that there is a pervasive, but apparently misinformed view that in Rus' it was the people who "took out" the union, it would be helpful if you could give some elaboration of the history of this Union within the EP, with some documentation. Thanks.
djs