www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Ich bin Judeten

Dear Professor Dan,

Aren't all Christians spiritual Semites?

Alex

These crimes of hate are of course deplorable and all Christians should be ashamed of this attitudes that, as Alex point out, attack Christ's origin. And not only anti-Judaism but also discrimination against all our brothers of other origins.

Now, unfortunately, we must also know that liberal circles are always trying to equal nouble christians who are critical against the modern state of Israel and pray for the conversion of the Jewish people to Christ, as nazis, fanatics and so on.

I believe there's a lot of false charity going on not only with Jews but also with the Muslims and the Protestants by encouraging to live in their errors and condemning them to live in pagan darkness.

Professor Alex,

Yes, indeed.

Mexican,

I'm not sure "pagan" is the right word for Jews or Protestants. They are both in relative darkness, but both have been touched by God. What do you make of Romans 11. Surely, this is not a condemnation of Jews. Also, check out St. Paul's discourse in Romans 1. Jews are "people of the book". Both Jews and Christians share the first covenant. But Jews are incomplete without Christ. How God finally judges them, or us for that matter, is up to Him. Protestants share the covenants with us but surely reject part of the new covenant. They reject the Bride of Christ and think she only exists in some future date. Both need to be evangelized but they are not pagans, I wouldn't think.

Dan L

Sorry, but I'm feeling offended. To understand why, I suggest taking a clear-sighted look at the statistics showing the steady fall in the Greek Catholic presence in what we still refer to as the Holy Land. For those who have eyes to see, these figures clearly indicate that the Greek Catholics are being systematically driven out by a state which loudly trumpets its claim to be a democracy. It is not right to ignore the suffering of our co-religionists because of a conscious or unconscious fear of being labelled "anti-Semitic" (and, by the way, Arabs are Semites). Incognitus

Incognitus,

Of course, criticism of this right-wing government in Israel right now is certainly a respectable point of view. I disagree strongly with Sharon as i do with aspects of the Palestinian leadership. But to be fair, much of the propaganda on the Palestinian side (inclusing Hamas) DOES tend to cross the line to be anti-Semitic in general and this takes the forms of Holocaust denial in it's more extreme forms.
I am horrified too by the policies of this particular Israeli government towards Palestinians both Moslem and Christian (Catholic, Orthodox and Prot) but we must not lose balance and see only one side.

Dear Incognitus,

Jerusalem and the sites associated with Christ, the Mother of God, the Apostles, the Prophets and the Patriarchs of old are what make the Holy Land the "Holy Land."

Not the presence or absence of this or that group of Christians.

And I didn't know we were talking about Israel at all in what Professor Dan has raised.

Alex

Dear Brian,

You are more than correct, Sir!

In British Columbia, an Arabic paper has been taken to court for publishing just such an article denying the Holocaust ever took place.

Alex

Perhaps because the term "anti-Semitism" is used too freely to describe anyone who is critical of the state of Israel and Palestinian suffering is undereported it causes some people to overreact in the other direction and overlook the suffering of the Jews?
That one would find anti-Semitism among Eastern Catholics ought not surprise anyone: Eastern Europe as a rule does not have a good record, from medieval pograms to collaboration with the Nazis. It is also too common among Latin Mass RCs....

Incognitus,

You need not feel offended. I've already mentioned the deplorable plight of Christians in Israel. It isn't just the Israeli government who is at fault. What is most sad is that the Prince of Peace get's so little hearing in His own place of birth. But I do remember that St. John said, "He came to His own and His own received Him not."

Nevertheless, as Prof. Alex has already pointed out, this has nothing to do with the horrible treatment that Jews are receiving in many places in Europe.

I do not have an answer for the problems in Israel, except that offered by Christ.

Dan Lauffer

daniel,

Good name that. I can readily understand the negative feelings Eastern Europeans would have against Communists and Muslims. But why the Jews?
It is interesting that Orthodox Serbia fought against the Nazis but Catholic Croatia collaborated with them. I guess I don't understand Eastern European thinking very well.

Dan Lauffer

Dan

I wasen't being defensive, it's just that if you had edited the original post just a little, you could have eliminated the pro-Israeli tone and made a more effective statement.

As I understand it hard feelings arose because Jews were involved in money lending and tax collecting. They were forbidden from charging interest to fellow Jews but this prohibition did not exist regarding Gentiles. It is also true that Jews sometimes collaborated with enemies of the Christian kingdoms [ie, Muslims] which caused resentment and distrust. And in historic times people of Jewish background were predominant in Marxist movements. As the Nazis opposed Marxism this led some people to view it as the "lesser evil". [Which should give one pause when making political choices].
Now, historically Jews may have done some of these things in reaction to persecution by Christians: they were often forbidden from owning land and so gravitated to money lending and other landless occupations. And they no doubt collaborated with Muslims in hopes of better treatment.
The question of which came first, Christian distrust or Jewish betrayal is a good one; we know that the Jews in the first centuries of the Christian era provoked anti-Christian persecutions; could that memory have survived? I don't know, perhaps others with more learning could comment.

Lawrence,

"The question of which came first, Christian distrust or Jewish betrayal is a good one; we know that the Jews in the first centuries of the Christian era provoked anti-Christian persecutions; could that memory have survived? I don't know, perhaps others with more learning could comment."

I don't think that your comments are trying to justify the persecution but only explain it. One must wonder if Jesus Christ is our Lord why do we return "evil for evil"? We do Christians, if they are Christians, "hate their enemies"? I'm not quite sure what you mean by memory, but it seems a bit of a logical stretch to imagine that 20th-21st Eastern European cultural Christians would have any memory at all of 1st century persecutions by Jews against them.

It really is hard to have respect for people who would claim a "Christian" reason for persecuting anyone.

Dan Lauffer

Dan

I think it was Daniel N's post you were responding to, not mine.

Lawrence,

You are right not only about the last post but probably right about your suggestion that I should have edited the original post a bit.

Dan Lauffer