www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Native American Mass...in L.A.

Hello,

I am not under the impression Bishop Zavala "changed" an existing prayer, but rather, he inserted a special prayer for a special ocassion.

I think the books already provide ways to do this.

No, I do not think that introducing spontaneous changes to the Creed or the Our Father are acceptable.

In this forum, the liturgical practices of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles have been severely criticized, however I can bear witness that more usually than not, care is taken to see that nothing in the books is changed even in the instances when elements are added to the celebration because of a special occasion.

I was not there for the NA Confirmation Mass, but I'll have to assume this was the case there.

I WAS there for the closing Mass for the Religious Education Congress earlier this year, and it is my honest assessment that the various moments of the Liturgy were preserved in their integrity and the elements seen on the video, which were severely objected here were done with respect and decorum and in harmony with the rest of the Liturgy.

In other words, I don't think either of these Liturgies were "clown Masses" and trying to characterize any of them as such is not only detrimental to the culture of the Native Americans and/or the general population of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, but also to the modern American culture which, I hope, doesn't place clowns in the same position Native Americans place their grandparents or the same place we Angelinos place our ability to get along in place even among our mind-boggling cultural diversity.

Shalom,
Memo

I often find it to be interesting that people will defend nearly to the death such practices as this disobedience to the rubrics (why have them if you're willing to pitch them at every convenient opportunity) yet they pitch a fit when someone suggests using Latin prayers or Chant (especially in place of the Protestant Haugen and Haas "hymns").

Carole, you are so sweet.

(I learn fast)

Shalom,
Memo

By the way, I was not aware either Marty Haugen or David Haas were not Catholics, but that might be the case.

Their music, however, has been approved by Catholic bishops for use in Catholic liturgy (at least the pieces included in official Catholic music books). Therefore, calling their music "Protestant" is slanderous, diffamatory and a lie (yes, all three).

And no, I do not mind using a Latin piece instead of a piece from any of these composers(or any other, for that matter).

The music ministry at my parish uses a Latin, Gregorian Chant Mass setting during Lent (and some years also Easter), and it is quite beautiful.

I do not know if you have noticed it, but I am NOT against any particular cultural expression in the Liturgy, and that includes, OF COURSE, our Latin heritage.

Shalom,
Memo

It has been well demonstrated that their songs (trite little ditties at best) contain elements of theology that are clearly not Catholic. If it isn't Catholic what would you call it? At least I called it Protestant and not Satanic (though I'm not at all sure that the inclusion of songs with Protestant theology included is not a Satanic attack on the Faith).

That Marty Haugen is not Catholic and has written music for both Protestant and Catholic liturgies is well published.

What I am saying is not slanderous, defamatory or a lie. But you can continue to think whatever you would like. You usually do.

Remember Memo, those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.

I had thought, or maybe I heard somewhere, that Haugen is Lutheran. He is definitely not a Bach or a Mozart, that's for sure. However, I seriously doubt the bishops pay that much attention to much of what is in the hymnals. They are too busy churning out unreadable documents for that.

Carole,

You must be a country music fan...quoting Aaron Tippin's song...

james

"By the way, I was not aware either Marty Haugen or David Haas were not Catholics, but that might be the case.

Their music, however, has been approved by Catholic bishops for use in Catholic liturgy (at least the pieces included in official Catholic music books). Therefore, calling their music "Protestant" is slanderous, diffamatory and a lie (yes, all three)."

I heard that Marty Haugen "Converted" to "Catholicism" some years ago. I think he was Methodist but became a Novus Ordo "Catholic" I may be wrong. As for his music being used in "Catholic liturgy" Nope! Protestant Liturgy with a validly Ordained Priest(s) is more honest rendition.

As for["Protestant" is slanderous, diffamatory and a lie (yes, all three)."] Yes, Memo you are exactly right. This "music" by the very nature of the Theology it contains and due to the reasons it is used in "Catholic" Churches does slander, defame, and lie about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

And as for quotin' country songs, I think "Murder on Music Row" by George Jones and Alan Jackson is much more appropriate.

I ran across this, for the interest of those who detest the music of Haugen. down with Haugen & Haas [mgilleland.com]

Thank You very much ByzanTN!

here are some quotes from http://www.mgilleland.com/music/moratorium.htm

pay close attention to the first couple and especially close attention to the last quote. ring a bell?


"Some Comments by Members

........

I am strangely grateful to these guys for helping convince me become a Byzantine Catholic, and I am sure they are helping send more folks our way with every song they write.

......

Fortunately we go to a Ukrainian Catholic Church where we're safe from this drivel, but my daughters' school is drowning in it! Can we also ban "Let Us Build The City of God"? And what about the menace of Carey Landry?

.....

Hey, Hey, Ho, Ho
Haugen-Haas have got to go

.....

I'm a convert from Anglicanism who learned to play the organ and am now the volunteer organist at my parish, all done so that I could avoid ever having to hear the "songs" of these men and those like them ever again!
.....

Don't forget the Songs of the Saint Louis Jesuits and Glory and Praise! I am so tired of Banjos, Bare Feet, Tambourines, and Kumbaya! This hootenanny we call worship is becoming a joke. The Eastern Rite is looking better and better.

.....

am a former RC organist/choir director who has been fired from my two local RC churches because of my insistence on good music. I now sing at the local Episcopal Church and am a substitute organist for Episcopalians and Presbyterians since the Catholics have disowned me!

......

It is sad to see Catholic worship getting more and more Protestant in nature. Much of Church music today is theologically vapid. Even worse than Marty Haugen and David Haas is the music used in Life Teen "Masses," where it is not uncommon to hear "worship" music by Protestant musicians with strongly Protestant content. I am fully behind your efforts to bring Catholicism back to Catholic worship.

......

I'm a Catholic Church music director and I've been fighting against this garbage for over twenty-five years. If I hear Mass of CREMATION one more time.............!!!

.......

I *hate* this music. I'm 19, and really can't stand it. Also, I'm not the only one of my generation who feels this way. Haugen and Haas seem to cater to aging hippies and cafeteria "Catholics," but few people I know who are my age like this crap. The ones that do like this stuff are quickly growing up to be heterodox. I stopped going to my home parish, a place with the seemingly orthodox name of Corpus Christi. I now attend either the Byzantine Rite or indult Tridentine Mass.

......

I am a Catholic musician who refuses to play for parishes here. I just can't force myself to be part of the musical heterodoxy we suffer under, from H&H to LifeTeen stuff....Thank God I can find reprieve at the local Ukrainian Catholic parish. They're brimming with refugees from the Latin Rite.


......

When I learned about the Society for a Moratorium on the Music of Marty Haugen and David Haas, I thought ..."Gather ME In".


......


"Hi, my name is Tom, and I used to sing at Folk Mass . . . . . "


.....

cannot thank you enough for providing this website!
For such a long time, I've been looking for a safe, welcome place to share the frustrations I've been feeling for so long, frustrations that now I know I share with others in solidarity. One of the most heartbreaking things about the Church in this country is that there is not enough space and opportunity to open up about these frustrations; we are force-fed ideology, put through liturgical "workshops" and made to sing (ad nauseam) certain music without say-so. When one has the slightest problem, question, or need for clarification, we are basically told to "shut up and row." ....

The sexual abuse crisis is not the only crisis in our Church; it's one hell of a crisis of faith and emotional and spiritual health to be forced to stand up and salute liturgical dancing, "inclusive" language (which is a non-entity, because if I have the slightest objection to it, these people sure as hell don't "include" me!) and the same damn feel-good folksy music Sunday after Sunday after Sunday after Sunday.....

One of the problems with Haugen/Haas, and whoever the hell wrote that insipid "Bless the Feast" (if I hear that song one more time I'm going to completely freak out!!!) and so many others, is that they are played into the ground, as if there is no other music to be heard, as if hundreds of years of beautiful music has been lost in the Titanic.

I've heard this crap at baptisms, on Maundy Thursday, on Easter, at my Grandma's funeral (one day I am forced to relive every time some "music minister" strikes it up), in church and in the seminary (and believe me, my classmates and I wrote our OWN lyrics, and sang them while everyone else sang the party line...that might be disrespectful, but so is playing this crap every bloody time we gather for Mass.)

And that's another thing. It isn't about worship anymore. Or about how great God is. Or about mystery. Or about the majesty of God. Or about the magnitude of the Blessed Sacrament. Oh, no; these are not the "in" things. We are not "with it" when we hold strong to these things....

And, speaking of sacrifice, why in the hell has the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass turned into a coffee klatch? And why has Vatican II been viewed as a carte blanche blitzkrieg of everything that happened in the Church prior to 1962? And why is the Tridentine Mass barely tolerated in so many local churches, when the latest liturgical bullshit is taken as the holy Gospel? Why has the "music ministry" taken over the liturgy?

At my funeral, if anyone dares to play "On Eagle's Wings", "Shepherd Me, O God", or any of the other leftist "Funeral Top 40," I'm getting out of the casket and smashing the instruments. Hey, I'll be dead, so they can't sue me for damages! I've been acolyte for probably 20 funerals, and I still get a nervous tick every time I hear "Eagle's Wings."

I'm searching for a place to call home, in terms of a parish family. I have to drive over 30 minutes to get to the local Tridentine Mass, which I'm sure our archbishop barely tolerates, unless it puts more money in his coffers or gives him more pr. Having to sit through these hootenanny Masses, by the time Holy Communion comes, I am so angry, so full of grief, that I am not properly disposed to receive Holy Communion....

And I am so damn bloody sick of this "We are Church" and "Let's get rid of the Reserved Sacrament, because the Mass is OUR family meal." BULLSHIT! As a good, loving Lutheran friend reminded me, "It's NOT 'our' supper - it's THE LORD'S supper!"

Dear Incogneat,

My,oh my, you have been very busy posting elsewhere!

Getting back on topic, when I die, I would like 'Fly like an eagle' and 'The Joker' both to be played. :p :p

Seriously though, I for one see how important it is to incorporate culture into religion. An example where it did not happen correctly: Voodoo and Santeria. Here are blends of African and Catholic cultures and values. To deny or overlook an extremely important cultural attitude leads to new blends such as these two examples.

While I do not condone it personally, I can see the value of incorporating tribal beliefs within the Church for certain ethnic groups. Has this not been the case in the past? Take St. Brigid of Ireland for example. There is much written about her pre Catholic days involving ancient Celtic customs and worship. It is a fact that the majority of the world was paganistic in the beginning. I have read a few books that compare the pantheon of gods to the communion of saints, and state this is not an accident, but a well crafted event to allow a certain mode of comfort for the new catechists incorporating Christ into their lives.

Our current celebration of Christmas is another perfect example of adapting a pagan festival to bring the people closer to God. This was a most important feast for pagan Europe, and now the European people still had the feast, but it brought them closer to God.

So regarding the incorporation of the Great Father into the Native American mass, is it valid? Is it needed? I believe it is valid, however, since I do not have close cultural contact with our original Americans, I cannot answer the last, but it appears someone else has by the allowance of this.

In summary, we already have voodoo, and Santeria. It would be a shame to see the creation of a third new Catholic blend religion. Would it not have been better to have taught the 'charismatic' concept to those who follow voodoo and Santeria? That might have been enough to prevent these blends from forming.

Michael

I disagree!!!!!!!!


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http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/005900.php