www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Native American Mass...in L.A.

I'm getting very close to...changing teams...and no, I'll never leave my Red Sox...or Patriots

Guess I just don't understand anymore...

http://www.the-tidings.com/2006/0630/native.htm

james

You've just made the list...

Dr. Eric

Go Cards!

Go Rams!

PS I don't get the syncretism either.

Dr. Eric,

The only reason I posted this was to balance the book with my Byzantine-Episcopal topic...I really do try to limit my Latin tendencies...

Back to the Braves & Cards...

james

Hi,

You probably expect this, but I do not see what do you find objectionable.

Early Christians distinguished themselves by Christianizing the then current and local cultures.

I do not see why that approach should be denied to Native American cultures.

Shalom,
Memo

I see nothing wrong with using NA language and dress at a service. I do feel uneasy about using a term like "Grandfather God"...especially considering the thread about the Presby's tinkering with the Trinity.

All,


I could not agree more with Memo on this.

Christian liturgical practice (whether Catholic or Orthodox) is in large part the product of centuries of organic development. This development has always sought to include much of the traditions of the cultures that would come under Christian influence.

The traditional Roman rite for instance developed in large part from the Roman culture. The traditional liturgical vestments came directly from the style of high ranking Romans. Latin was at one time the vernacular so it was used. And the list goes on and does not pretend to be complete.

In the Eastern Christian world this was much the same.

Look for instance at the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which adapted so much of its culture into their liturgy. The traditional instruments used in the liturgy come from the Ethiopian culture.

There is nothing wrong with extending this 'Christianizing of culture' to the Native Americans or any other group.

Just because one is not accustomed to or does not understand the traditions of other cultures, this does not mean that one should be scandalized because elements of other cultures are present in a liturgy.

Personally, I would be comfortable attending this mass even though I am not Native American, just as I was comfortable attending a Byzantine Catholic liturgy, even though that was also not part my cultural patrimony.

ProCatholico

I do have concerns when the liturgy is changed (except for the common language of said people)and is foreign to the current Latin...why have a standard liturgy and then permit hundreds of variables and exemptions...

Outside the Liturgy I have no problem...

PAX
james

ps-my wife's + father was half Cherokee...

I don't know how the NAs are in your area, but in mine it's hard to tell what actually belongs to their "culture." They want to preserve ancestral burial grounds - not ancestors of their tribe, but of someone - for use as casinos. They wear their native footwear - Nikes. They often dress in plains indian garb for the tourists, which their ancestors never wore. Often they have typical native American names - like Running Bear Schultz. I know they were discriminated against in the past, and if they can turn things to the advantage of their people, more power to them. But some of the "culture" stuff is a bit ridiculous.

The NA's probably have the same problem with main stream America and it's culture. What belongs to it and what is being claimed for it as American Culture. They continue to experience huge social disruption as do many indigenous peoples across the world and no amount of casinos will restore human dignity. The Church which played a part in the suppression of the culture of the people, has rightly responded to the need to teach the Gospel and serve the liturgy using the culture of the people. It takes time to fine tune these matters.

All,

The commercialization of a culture is always a cause for sorrow. It is sheer exploitation of the rich cultural heritage of a people, just for the sole amusement of others.

However, while this is lamentable, one should be mindful of the fact that much of the commercialized culture used to entertain �white folks� in this country IS in fact based on true Native American culture. Now I repeat, that some unscrupulous individuals have profited from �dressing up� their culture with adaptations that they never had originally is truly regrettable. But, this does not take away from the fact that this �dressing up� is based on true Native American culture and while it is often represented to us in an amalgamated form, we should be respectful nonetheless.

Lastly, we all come from different cultures, and on this 4th of July let us remember that in America one of the things that we do take pride in is our great cultural milieu. Let us realize though, that we can only understand our own culture, because we live it everyday of our lives. We must never presume to understand another culture entirely and thus cast judgment upon something we will never fully grasp. We are called to toleration and moreover, respect.

That one person is comfortable attending a Byzantine Liturgy is great, that I am comfortable attending a Pauline Liturgy is great also, that some Native Americans use to worship in a Pauline Liturgy in the Native American tradition is great as well. If they want it, then let them be, by all means do not attend such a mass if it scandalizes you to experience another culture in a Catholic mass setting.

Different strokes for different folks people! The Mass is the Mass, this Native American one is no different, valid in is totality and beautiful in its own right.

ProCatholico

How about a mass adapted for another oppressed minority culture � one mercilessly exploited and 'used to entertain �white folks� in this country' - come on, you know who I'm talking about - the Clowns. I can just see it now, Bozo the Clown as Altar Server and Ronald McDonald the Eucharistic Minister (excuse me, 'Extraordinary Minister' � which in this instance, with those huge red shoes, would actually be accurate�).

Oh wait - in 2002 this type of mass already took place in (where else) California. Picture below... note that the priest joined the entertainment by donning 'clown vestments' - love the polka dot stole with red tassels! :rolleyes:

[Linked Image]

[Fr. Brian Joyce, celebrant. Clown Mass, 1 Sept 2002, 9:15AM, Christ the King Church, Pleasant Hill CA, Diocese of Oakland.]

Allow me to paraphrase:

'Different jokes for different folks people! The Mass is the Mass, this Clown one is no different, vapid in its totality and beautifully trite in its own rite.' *honk honk*


~Isaac (who is compelled to endure unending hours of politically correct 'cultural sensitivity' tripe each and every day of graduate studies at the University of Hawaii.)

I think this would be different stroy if this was going on 300-400 years ago when the missionaries were first arriving and adapting the Liturgy to the people. The Liturgies are now part of the culture and I think that it is way too late in the game to start monkeying around with something that has been established for so long. (Think Forum 9)

Dr. Eric
whose great-great-great grandma was Illiniwek.

Hi,

Well, I disagree.

That a translation into English of a NA expression renders as "Grandfather God" is not sufficient to say anything about the correctness of the original expression.

On the other hand, my grandfather is simply the father of any of my parents. God fits that job description.

Also, in some cultures, the word for "grandfather" is used to address any elder male as a form of affectionate respect, even if there is no blood relationship. What if that expression is just a poetic rendition of what we would say as "Ever-living God".

Or it may be something else we really do not understand very well, because we do not understand the culture very well.

No, I do not think it is like the Rock, Paper Scissors thig going on elsewhere.

Shalom,
Memo

hmmmmmm. as someone who is part Native, and whose grandparents made sure that I had grounding in both Native and White (German) cultures, I am intrigued.
while I do not believe that gambling is a cure for poverty for any people, the level of poverty on many reservation is appalling, to say the least, that is a major factor in the level of alcoholism and suicide that plagues the reservations in America.
I don't dress in native apparell, but I do have a dreamcatcher over my bed and a medicine shield on my wall, plus a library of books on Native America that go back to my early childhood. one look at me, and if you don't think that I look Jewish (of which I have been accused of looking) you'll see the Native influence. my sister looks like Pocohantas for pete's sake, and how Grandpap(eternal rest and memory) ever passed for White is still a mysterium tremendum to me.
as far as Christianity and Native Americans are concerned, two hundred years ago, missionaries under the tutelage of David Brainerd visited my Tribe, and converted them to Presbyterianism. Grandpa's White ancestors were from Holland, came here in 1639 to what the English call New York, and were Dutch Reformed, so it was a logical step for his family to adopt Presbyterianism when they married into Shinnecock Nation. never heard Grandpa refer to God as Grandfather, so I'm a bit mystified.
oh, as far as Native names are concerned, I will sign off with a variation.
Much Love,
Jonn Nightwatcher Mulry

Memo

Based on what you've written, would you then hold that it would be acceptable in a NA Mass for the Our Father prayer to be changed to "Our Grandfather who art in heaven..." or the Creed to "I believe in one God, the Grandfather Almighty... and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Grandson of God... Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Grandfather�" - seriously, where would you draw the line with cultural accommodation in relation to the Divine Liturgy?

~Isaac

Hello,

I am not under the impression Bishop Zavala "changed" an existing prayer, but rather, he inserted a special prayer for a special ocassion.

I think the books already provide ways to do this.

No, I do not think that introducing spontaneous changes to the Creed or the Our Father are acceptable.

In this forum, the liturgical practices of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles have been severely criticized, however I can bear witness that more usually than not, care is taken to see that nothing in the books is changed even in the instances when elements are added to the celebration because of a special occasion.

I was not there for the NA Confirmation Mass, but I'll have to assume this was the case there.

I WAS there for the closing Mass for the Religious Education Congress earlier this year, and it is my honest assessment that the various moments of the Liturgy were preserved in their integrity and the elements seen on the video, which were severely objected here were done with respect and decorum and in harmony with the rest of the Liturgy.

In other words, I don't think either of these Liturgies were "clown Masses" and trying to characterize any of them as such is not only detrimental to the culture of the Native Americans and/or the general population of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, but also to the modern American culture which, I hope, doesn't place clowns in the same position Native Americans place their grandparents or the same place we Angelinos place our ability to get along in place even among our mind-boggling cultural diversity.

Shalom,
Memo

I often find it to be interesting that people will defend nearly to the death such practices as this disobedience to the rubrics (why have them if you're willing to pitch them at every convenient opportunity) yet they pitch a fit when someone suggests using Latin prayers or Chant (especially in place of the Protestant Haugen and Haas "hymns").

Carole, you are so sweet.

(I learn fast)

Shalom,
Memo

By the way, I was not aware either Marty Haugen or David Haas were not Catholics, but that might be the case.

Their music, however, has been approved by Catholic bishops for use in Catholic liturgy (at least the pieces included in official Catholic music books). Therefore, calling their music "Protestant" is slanderous, diffamatory and a lie (yes, all three).

And no, I do not mind using a Latin piece instead of a piece from any of these composers(or any other, for that matter).

The music ministry at my parish uses a Latin, Gregorian Chant Mass setting during Lent (and some years also Easter), and it is quite beautiful.

I do not know if you have noticed it, but I am NOT against any particular cultural expression in the Liturgy, and that includes, OF COURSE, our Latin heritage.

Shalom,
Memo

It has been well demonstrated that their songs (trite little ditties at best) contain elements of theology that are clearly not Catholic. If it isn't Catholic what would you call it? At least I called it Protestant and not Satanic (though I'm not at all sure that the inclusion of songs with Protestant theology included is not a Satanic attack on the Faith).

That Marty Haugen is not Catholic and has written music for both Protestant and Catholic liturgies is well published.

What I am saying is not slanderous, defamatory or a lie. But you can continue to think whatever you would like. You usually do.

Remember Memo, those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.

I had thought, or maybe I heard somewhere, that Haugen is Lutheran. He is definitely not a Bach or a Mozart, that's for sure. However, I seriously doubt the bishops pay that much attention to much of what is in the hymnals. They are too busy churning out unreadable documents for that.

Carole,

You must be a country music fan...quoting Aaron Tippin's song...

james

"By the way, I was not aware either Marty Haugen or David Haas were not Catholics, but that might be the case.

Their music, however, has been approved by Catholic bishops for use in Catholic liturgy (at least the pieces included in official Catholic music books). Therefore, calling their music "Protestant" is slanderous, diffamatory and a lie (yes, all three)."

I heard that Marty Haugen "Converted" to "Catholicism" some years ago. I think he was Methodist but became a Novus Ordo "Catholic" I may be wrong. As for his music being used in "Catholic liturgy" Nope! Protestant Liturgy with a validly Ordained Priest(s) is more honest rendition.

As for["Protestant" is slanderous, diffamatory and a lie (yes, all three)."] Yes, Memo you are exactly right. This "music" by the very nature of the Theology it contains and due to the reasons it is used in "Catholic" Churches does slander, defame, and lie about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

And as for quotin' country songs, I think "Murder on Music Row" by George Jones and Alan Jackson is much more appropriate.

I ran across this, for the interest of those who detest the music of Haugen. down with Haugen & Haas [mgilleland.com]

Thank You very much ByzanTN!

here are some quotes from http://www.mgilleland.com/music/moratorium.htm

pay close attention to the first couple and especially close attention to the last quote. ring a bell?


"Some Comments by Members

........

I am strangely grateful to these guys for helping convince me become a Byzantine Catholic, and I am sure they are helping send more folks our way with every song they write.

......

Fortunately we go to a Ukrainian Catholic Church where we're safe from this drivel, but my daughters' school is drowning in it! Can we also ban "Let Us Build The City of God"? And what about the menace of Carey Landry?

.....

Hey, Hey, Ho, Ho
Haugen-Haas have got to go

.....

I'm a convert from Anglicanism who learned to play the organ and am now the volunteer organist at my parish, all done so that I could avoid ever having to hear the "songs" of these men and those like them ever again!
.....

Don't forget the Songs of the Saint Louis Jesuits and Glory and Praise! I am so tired of Banjos, Bare Feet, Tambourines, and Kumbaya! This hootenanny we call worship is becoming a joke. The Eastern Rite is looking better and better.

.....

am a former RC organist/choir director who has been fired from my two local RC churches because of my insistence on good music. I now sing at the local Episcopal Church and am a substitute organist for Episcopalians and Presbyterians since the Catholics have disowned me!

......

It is sad to see Catholic worship getting more and more Protestant in nature. Much of Church music today is theologically vapid. Even worse than Marty Haugen and David Haas is the music used in Life Teen "Masses," where it is not uncommon to hear "worship" music by Protestant musicians with strongly Protestant content. I am fully behind your efforts to bring Catholicism back to Catholic worship.

......

I'm a Catholic Church music director and I've been fighting against this garbage for over twenty-five years. If I hear Mass of CREMATION one more time.............!!!

.......

I *hate* this music. I'm 19, and really can't stand it. Also, I'm not the only one of my generation who feels this way. Haugen and Haas seem to cater to aging hippies and cafeteria "Catholics," but few people I know who are my age like this crap. The ones that do like this stuff are quickly growing up to be heterodox. I stopped going to my home parish, a place with the seemingly orthodox name of Corpus Christi. I now attend either the Byzantine Rite or indult Tridentine Mass.

......

I am a Catholic musician who refuses to play for parishes here. I just can't force myself to be part of the musical heterodoxy we suffer under, from H&H to LifeTeen stuff....Thank God I can find reprieve at the local Ukrainian Catholic parish. They're brimming with refugees from the Latin Rite.


......

When I learned about the Society for a Moratorium on the Music of Marty Haugen and David Haas, I thought ..."Gather ME In".


......


"Hi, my name is Tom, and I used to sing at Folk Mass . . . . . "


.....

cannot thank you enough for providing this website!
For such a long time, I've been looking for a safe, welcome place to share the frustrations I've been feeling for so long, frustrations that now I know I share with others in solidarity. One of the most heartbreaking things about the Church in this country is that there is not enough space and opportunity to open up about these frustrations; we are force-fed ideology, put through liturgical "workshops" and made to sing (ad nauseam) certain music without say-so. When one has the slightest problem, question, or need for clarification, we are basically told to "shut up and row." ....

The sexual abuse crisis is not the only crisis in our Church; it's one hell of a crisis of faith and emotional and spiritual health to be forced to stand up and salute liturgical dancing, "inclusive" language (which is a non-entity, because if I have the slightest objection to it, these people sure as hell don't "include" me!) and the same damn feel-good folksy music Sunday after Sunday after Sunday after Sunday.....

One of the problems with Haugen/Haas, and whoever the hell wrote that insipid "Bless the Feast" (if I hear that song one more time I'm going to completely freak out!!!) and so many others, is that they are played into the ground, as if there is no other music to be heard, as if hundreds of years of beautiful music has been lost in the Titanic.

I've heard this crap at baptisms, on Maundy Thursday, on Easter, at my Grandma's funeral (one day I am forced to relive every time some "music minister" strikes it up), in church and in the seminary (and believe me, my classmates and I wrote our OWN lyrics, and sang them while everyone else sang the party line...that might be disrespectful, but so is playing this crap every bloody time we gather for Mass.)

And that's another thing. It isn't about worship anymore. Or about how great God is. Or about mystery. Or about the majesty of God. Or about the magnitude of the Blessed Sacrament. Oh, no; these are not the "in" things. We are not "with it" when we hold strong to these things....

And, speaking of sacrifice, why in the hell has the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass turned into a coffee klatch? And why has Vatican II been viewed as a carte blanche blitzkrieg of everything that happened in the Church prior to 1962? And why is the Tridentine Mass barely tolerated in so many local churches, when the latest liturgical bullshit is taken as the holy Gospel? Why has the "music ministry" taken over the liturgy?

At my funeral, if anyone dares to play "On Eagle's Wings", "Shepherd Me, O God", or any of the other leftist "Funeral Top 40," I'm getting out of the casket and smashing the instruments. Hey, I'll be dead, so they can't sue me for damages! I've been acolyte for probably 20 funerals, and I still get a nervous tick every time I hear "Eagle's Wings."

I'm searching for a place to call home, in terms of a parish family. I have to drive over 30 minutes to get to the local Tridentine Mass, which I'm sure our archbishop barely tolerates, unless it puts more money in his coffers or gives him more pr. Having to sit through these hootenanny Masses, by the time Holy Communion comes, I am so angry, so full of grief, that I am not properly disposed to receive Holy Communion....

And I am so damn bloody sick of this "We are Church" and "Let's get rid of the Reserved Sacrament, because the Mass is OUR family meal." BULLSHIT! As a good, loving Lutheran friend reminded me, "It's NOT 'our' supper - it's THE LORD'S supper!"

Dear Incogneat,

My,oh my, you have been very busy posting elsewhere!

Getting back on topic, when I die, I would like 'Fly like an eagle' and 'The Joker' both to be played. :p :p

Seriously though, I for one see how important it is to incorporate culture into religion. An example where it did not happen correctly: Voodoo and Santeria. Here are blends of African and Catholic cultures and values. To deny or overlook an extremely important cultural attitude leads to new blends such as these two examples.

While I do not condone it personally, I can see the value of incorporating tribal beliefs within the Church for certain ethnic groups. Has this not been the case in the past? Take St. Brigid of Ireland for example. There is much written about her pre Catholic days involving ancient Celtic customs and worship. It is a fact that the majority of the world was paganistic in the beginning. I have read a few books that compare the pantheon of gods to the communion of saints, and state this is not an accident, but a well crafted event to allow a certain mode of comfort for the new catechists incorporating Christ into their lives.

Our current celebration of Christmas is another perfect example of adapting a pagan festival to bring the people closer to God. This was a most important feast for pagan Europe, and now the European people still had the feast, but it brought them closer to God.

So regarding the incorporation of the Great Father into the Native American mass, is it valid? Is it needed? I believe it is valid, however, since I do not have close cultural contact with our original Americans, I cannot answer the last, but it appears someone else has by the allowance of this.

In summary, we already have voodoo, and Santeria. It would be a shame to see the creation of a third new Catholic blend religion. Would it not have been better to have taught the 'charismatic' concept to those who follow voodoo and Santeria? That might have been enough to prevent these blends from forming.

Michael

I disagree!!!!!!!!


But I invite everyone to join me for some ice cream here:
http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/005900.php