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Desmond Tutu Brands Guantanamo \'A Disgrace\' [news.scotsman.com]

Archbishop Desmond Tutu today branded the Guantanamo Bay prison camp a �disgrace�.

The Nobel Peace Prize winner compared the legal situation surrounding the detention centre to South Africa�s apartheid system.

He was speaking following allegations by British detainee Moazzam Begg that he had been tortured at the US naval base on Cuba.

[...]

�They�re using the very same sort of arrangements that were being used by the apartheid government in South Africa.�

Speaking about the play, he said: �I hope that this will help to put this particular issue out to the public, so the people can say �is this what we want to support? Is this something that can be done in my name and our name�.�

The archbishop insisted that in democracies the rule of law must apply to all people.

He also warned of the dangers of branding people �terrorists�.

�Be very careful about your designations,� he said. �Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist.�
[...]
***************

The retired Anglican prelate will be the guest tonight (Monday, Oct. 4th, just past midnight ET, so actually Tuesday!) on the Jon Stewart show.

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�Be very careful about your designations,� he said. �Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist.�

Because he was.

JoeS

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Originally posted by JoeS:
�Be very careful about your designations,� he said. �Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist.�

Because he was.

JoeS
Do we need to also be careful about calling him an adulterer? His first wife had no problem calling him that. wink

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Unless one lived as a black South African under the Apartheid regime, I do not think one can really throw stones at Mr Mandela who oversaw the peaceful transition to true democracy of his nation. Let us remember the Civil Rights struggles in this country!!!

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Of course we should be careful:

Quote
Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:

- of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;

- of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them;
from the Catholic catechism.

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He who buries his head in the dirt and refuses to acknowledge fact, deserves a mouth full of mud.

Catechism according to Charles. :p

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What is your objectively valid reason for disclosing the charge of adultery? Who is in the mud?

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In Mandela's early days, he was not the more decent person he later became. He was a terrorist and also a communist, or so I heard. I saw a news program - 60 Minutes type - some years ago and they interviewed his first wife. It must have been around the time he became president. She said, and I can't quote exactly, "I don't see why he is being praised. He's an adulterer." He's also a public figure, and they can't claim any rights to be free of criticism as ordinary citizens can. Mandela was not an ordinary citizen. Criticism goes with the territory, and we do have the right to criticize public figures. Of course, I have heard that sins are only counted when they are committed by conservatives and Republicans. They should of course be jailed when they transgress. But if crimes and sins are committed by Democrats and liberal icons, then they should run for The Congress - from a Northeastern state known for overlooking such things. biggrin wink biggrin

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If Mandela were running for public office here, as he was in South Africa, then there then there is, arguably, an objective reason to disclose this charge, if true: to inform voters about aspects of character. But he is not.

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Mandela is a public figure who once held office. But seeming, according to TuTu, no one should dare say that he was a terrorist at one time - even though he was. TuTu must view him as some sort of icon who can not be criticized. Mandela's behavior, such as adultery, is an indication of his character at one point in time. It is also a reference point against which to measure how much he changed over time.

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Mandela was part and parcal to the massacres of the Hoti (sp?). Beheadings, rape and pure torture for fun was the Tutu's legacy. The Machete was the tool of his trade. This blood cannot be washed from his hands no matter what he has become today.

JoeS

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Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
Mandela was part and parcal to the massacres of the Hoti (sp?). Beheadings, rape and pure torture for fun was the Tutu's legacy. The Machete was the tool of his trade. This blood cannot be washed from his hands no matter what he has become today.

JoeS
OOOOOOH! Be careful, Joe! As I mentioned, only those evil conservatives and Republicans are held accountable for sins and crimes. wink Liberal icons are lauded no matter what evils they commit. Mandela did change over time, but everything you have said is also true. Besides, you will be taken to task for not having an objective reason for telling the truth. wink

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The charges of terrorism against Mandela are of interest, insofar as they might help us appreciate the difference between just and unjust warfare and legitimate means vs. terror. But JoeS, could you provide some background on "Tutu's legacy" and the "Hoti". I'm getting nowhere with this on google.

The fact that someone is a public figure has an impact on civil law of slander and libel. But it has no inherent bearing on the moral law of detraction.

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Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
Mandela was part and parcal to the massacres of the Hoti (sp?). Beheadings, rape and pure torture for fun was the Tutu's legacy. The Machete was the tool of his trade. This blood cannot be washed from his hands no matter what he has become today.
Joe,

You need to do some fact-checking. You are confusing Archbishop Tutu's name with the Tutsi tribe in Burundi. As to Mandela's involvement with the genocide committed against the Hutu by the Tutsi, he brokered the peace negotiations that resulted in the peaceful transfer of power from Pierre Buyoya, of the minority (but, controlling) Tutsis, to Domitien Nzayizeye, a Hutu, in the spring of last year. The troubles in Burundi are far from resolved; there is still fierce fighting between factions of the two tribes and ordinary persons of both tribes continue to live in fear, but Nelson Mandela's involvement in the entire matter has been solely one of trying to bring it to an end.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by byzanTN:
He who buries his head in the dirt and refuses to acknowledge fact, deserves a mouth full of mud.
Charles and Joe,

You both need to consider the fact that labels such as "terrorist" are easily accorded by those who defend the status quo, particularly against those who represent popular sentiment and seek change. For instance, Washington, Adams, Henry, Kosciusko, Pulaski, Lafayette, Jones, Barry, von Steuben, and Rochambeau, among the many we deem heroes of our Revolution, were "terrorists" to their British overlords. Mandela, whatever flaws existed in his early life, was the single most important symbol through which came about the end to an inherently evil system of social design.

And, last I read, judgement of others' souls was reserved to a higher Power than either of you have available to exercise.

Many years,

Neil, who hasn't seen "Omniscient" appearing as a descriptor of anyone's member status here of late


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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