www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The funeral oration of the Roman Empire by Constantine IX

Dear Incognitus,

Ofcourse the Church does not die, as we have the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against her!

However, Christian nations have suffered persecutions, defeats and occupations by communists and Muslims, and according to Father Arseny, a witness to great faith in the gulags, it was the sins of the laity and clergy that brought his beloved Russia to that point. He firmly believed this.

Therefore, I think that Myles has a point in asking for prayer for the conversion of Europe. It is the audacious religious and spiritual apathy, bordering on atheism, which I have encountered in Europeans of different ethnicities and ages that gives me a great and foreboding sense of fear. The Pope often alludes to this apathy.

The very fact that the European Union ignored the Holy Father and the Ecumenical Patriarch who pleaded with them to include their spiritual patrimony of the Christian faith in the European constitution also scares me....

Ofcourse we should never stop praying for our own American collective and individual spiritual shortcomings as well.

Lord have mercy on us all!

In Christ,
Alice, a sinner

Indeed, Alice. I dont know what you guys make of the whole Malachy prophecy which Zenovia brought up elsewhere on this site but I'm thinking that the time of judgement for the city on the 7 Hills could be closer than we imagine. Not that I believe that its going to be the end of the world but it might be the end of the eternal city's existence as the Catholic capital of the world.

Alice sees it, as do I, the European man has become so much indifferent as to barely to be called an atheist and barely worthy of any other title. He just doesn't care. It is as Alice says: apathy. A complete absence of any conviction or desire for any solution which may prove strenous. Whatever will cause them the least problems (at least in the immediate) Europeans are generally glad to do.

If they imagined they could go along living their hedonic lifestyle under a Sultanate do you really think that Europe wouldn't immediately convert? Do you truly believe that a civilisation that believes in nothing but what suits me here and now would not fall for the charms of the opium houses of Old Istanbul and its harems?

Even within the Church there is such little urgency in spite of our dire predicament. Rather we have yesterday's men arguing over yesterday's solutions spending precious time arguing over 'the Spirit of Vatican II' whilst outside of their ivory towers the Church over which they are fighting crumbles rapidly. God help us some of these men are actually Bishops! Rather than opening its doors to the world the quarrels of Vatican II allowed the smoke of Satan to enter the Church (Paul VI) and further trap ourselves in introspection.

Will we continue to war amongst ourselves as Constantinople ravaged itself with civil wars even as the Turks advanced?? Even though the Church in Europe is falling apart its members take no heed of the signs of the times and continue to make war on one another. A house divided against itself...when the cresent overshadows the cross...will this house stand??

As Alice says, young and old, poor and rich, they have become victims of their own existentialism. Their lives are meaningless and without meaning behind their trials they've lost the desire to fight. We will loose this battle because we do not care enough to prepare for it. Its maddening!!

We need to get out there we need to start winning souls because right now thats exactly what Islam is doing. They're converting, they're emigrating and they're not killing themselves off by contracepting redrawing the demographics of Europe as they go. Walking around Oxford I see blonde women in hijabs. Slowly but surely the hammer is falling and yet none care to act.

Are we going to spend the next half century having arguments amongst ourselves, playing happy families at the dialogue table and getting nowhere, running further and further into our Christian ghetto whilst the Muslims slowly transform Europe? Will they meet with no opposition at all???

And some might say the secularists will resist them. Hah!?! How can a bunch of people to whom struggle has become an alien concept resist anything? How can a continent of people who have fallen into an existential neurosis fight with heart when they're convinced of the meaningless of life?

Unless we act fast the 22nd century shall see St Peter's share the fate of Hagia Sophia. God has been warning us for over 100 years that this would happen why should we be surprised? Everyone remember Leo XIII's vision after which he penned the prayer to St Michael the Archangel? Or the prophecies of Sts Pius X and Don Bosco? Not to mention the myriad of Marian apparations from La Salette to Knock, Fatima and elsewhere. God has given us graces, God has given us time, what have we done with it?

*shakes head*

Besides a miracle I can see no future for Christianity in Europe. Our hour has come. May God have mercy on our souls.

Sancte Petrus, Ora Pro Nobis

Myles certainly has a valid point and prayers for the conversion of Europe are needed - and have been repeatedly called for by the incumbent Pope and his predecessor. My only point is that on this one, we must pray with real hope. As a wise elder once said: "if you go to Church to pray for rain, bring an umbrella!"

Incognitus

Thank you for that wise admonition Incognitus...our prayers should not be shallow, but said with real faith.

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

Dear Myles you said:

"but I'm thinking that the time of judgement for the city on the 7 Hills could be closer than we imagine. Not that I believe that its going to be the end of the world but it might be the end of the eternal city's existence as the Catholic capital of the world."

I say:

Please don't say that. I don't know of any horror greater than something happening to the Vatican. But here's Pope John Paul II's prophecy:

"POPE, SATAN WILL BE VANQUISHED BUT THE FIGHT IS LONG AND HARD

AGI) - Vatican City, 12 Jan - The Pope commented today on the Apocalypse before the 7,000 people attending the General Papal Audience today in the Nervi Hall, indicating that the fight between good and evil, personified by Satan, is a very hard one, as shown by the manifold violence and injustice in the world today, however the outcome is certain, evil will be vanquished.

Pope John Paul II explained, "God and the Lamb, Christ, surrounded by the 'Council of the Crown', are judging human history in good and evil, but showing us however the ultimate end in salvation and glory. The songs which are found in the Apocalypse and which serve to illustrate the issue of divine glory which regulates the flux, often disconcerting, of the tide of human events". Of great significance is the first part of the hymn intoned by the 24 ancients who seem to incarnate the chosen people in their two historic stages, the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles of the Church.

The Pope continued, Satan, the original adversary, who accused our brothers in the heavenly court, has now been cast down from heaven and therefore no longer has great power. He knows he has not much time left because history is about to see a radical turning point in freedom from evil and therefore he is reacting full of great fury.

And then the resurrected Christ will rise up, whose blood is the principle of salvation and who received from the Father royal power over the entire universe, in Him are centred salvation, strength and the kingdom of our God. In his victory are associated the Christian martyrs who chose the path of the cross, not yielding to evil and it virulence, but delivering themselves to the Father and uniting themselves to the death of Christ by means of a testimony of donation and courage which brought them to give up life in order to die".

He concluded, "the words of the Apocalypse regarding those who have vanquished Satan and evil through the blood of the Lamb, echo also in the splendid prayer attributed to the Christian martyr Simeon, from Seleucia-Ctesifonte in Persia, 'I will receive life without pain, worry, anguish, persecutor, persecuted, oppressor, oppressed, tyrant or victim, there I will see no threat of king, or terror of prefects, no-one will quote me in court or terrorise me and no-one will drag me or scare me".

Zenovia

Dont worry I have not lost hope. Indeed, if I had I wouldn't even be posting these things rather I'd be preparing to move to Rome so that I could see in my final days under the shadow of St John Lateran.

I believe there is still time just very, very little of it...I hold on to hope like a shimmering flicker of light that dances before my eyes amidst an encroaching darkness. Just a little while longer and my little flame shall be completely burnt out. I only hope before that time the brides come with oil in the lamps to keep the night from engulfing us. Right now the only thing I can see apart from my little candle is the bold Crescent moon looming over the horizon and its scares me.

Well said, Incognitus !!! Well said too, Zenovia !

Myles, my friend, I agree that the situation looks dire. And, you have better perspective there because you live on that side of the pond.

All I can add is my perspective on things over here and how they are somewhat similar. Here in America, a supposedly Christian country, we kill about a million children every year through abortion; we are saturated with lust in the popular culture to the point of pathology, and we face a growing mindset that is materialistic. Anger, lust greed: the three doorways to hell. And, they seem to be growing in popularity. Then add in the priest pedophile scandal, declining numbers of vocations (to religious life and to married life), parishes being closed, and a strange kind of apathy that cares more about TV programs than the serious issues of the day and, well, it can become downright depressing. It can get even worse for Eastern Catholics, who seem to be in a demographic free-fall. Etc.

Now, I'm not suggesting that these problems be ignored. But, I have found (for myself) that the only answer that gets me out of bed in the morning without depression is hope and trust in Jesus. I know you have hope too in Him, otherwise you wouldn't be so concerned. But as for divining the future, I leave that up to the Divine. It will somehow work out, because He will make it work out. He did so at the Cross with the Empty Tomb, and He has been doing so ever since.

And, personally, I tend to find Pope Benedict's idea on this topic to be persuasive. There is a new springtime to the Church, although the Church may be smaller than before, because the Church will be composed of those who are truly committed to and in love with Jesus Christ and His Church.

Put another way, I used to get depressed sometimes when I went to Divine Liturgy because the worshippers were so few and old. But then, I noticed the enormous faith and love and joy of the people who actually showed up. They believe; and they love Jesus Christ and the Byzantine Catholic Church; and they are keeping their parish alive by that faith and love and joy. From their example, I learned to worry less and to know that Jesus isn't going to let the Church die out or fail, no matter what ill choices the world around us may make. And, as a result, my little parish has in fact grown: it has grown by one (me) because of their witness. And so other parishes will likewise grow. People find Christ in the people of Christ: and Christ is enough, and more than enough, to stay and to grow in the Gospel.

What I�m referring to is the �good infection� that C.S. Lewis wrote about in �Mere Christianity.� We �catch� Jesus and His grace from one another, one person at a time. The Church may be less numerous, but it will be more intensely captivated by Jesus and His Grace -- and thus better able to share Him with others.

None of this diminishes the realities you pointed out. Indeed, there may well be very difficult times in the future for our Church (and for our civilization), based upon the choices that are currently being made in the world. But, what I�m talking about --faith and love and hope in Jesus-- makes all of this bearable and hope-filled. And He will draw good out of all of this.

And here is the amazing part: He will use us --us! sinners!-- as His some of His main instruments to do so. We pray for the conversion of Europe, for the renewal of the Church, for the unity of the Church, for the repentance of America, etc. Ok; He will grant these things -- through us. We are the lamp on a lamp-post, the salt of the earth, the leaven in the dough, etc. It will be Christ who does the redeeming, but He will do so in large part through us, His Church, His Body. That not only boggles my mind and humbles me; it also makes me rather excited and enthusiastic. :-)

That's just my two cents' worth of thinking, my friend. I hope it helps (and I apologize if I gave offense).

-- John

Dear John,

That was a beautiful and heartfelt post, and it rang so true.

Thank you for it.

God bless you.

In Christ,
Alice

Indeed, John you did not cause any offence. There is much wisdom in your words. I shall heed them in good faith. God Bless.