www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Victory in Baghdad

April 9, 2003

Victory for coalition forces and the People of Baghdad

Non Nobis Domine

Non nobis Domine, Domine,
Non nobis Domine,
Sed Nomini, sed Nomini
Tuo da gloriam.

Not to us O Lord, not to us
but to Your Name give glory

Psalm 115:1a


Pray that the war ends soon. Grace and peace to Iraq.

Paul

There is another beautiful psalm who says in Greek:

"Πρόσθες αυτοίς κακά, Κύριε, πρόσθες αυτοίς κακά τοις ισχυροίς της γης"

Ο έχων ώτα ακουείν ακουέτω

This is no victory for those who have lost thier lives, and thier families, in this unjust war.

Peter

There is victory for all persons created by God with the gift of free will.

Peter,

There was also no victory for all the thousands of innocent Iraqis who were brutally murdered by their own government over the past few decades before one coalition tank rolled into their country.

Saddam will rightfully take his place next to Hitler and Stalin.

To be brutally murdered by your own government or to be brutally murdered by a foreing goverment who comes to your country to "libarate" you and to take your oil does not make a difference for those who are brutally murdered in Irak, but from the point of view of the international law and international relationships that makes a great difference. The point is not to choose among foreing or domestic tyranny. By the way, there are a lot of Christians and non Christians peoples waiting to be "libarated" in other areas of the world (Armenians, Kurds, Palestinians, Assyrians, Northern Cyprus), in "pseudo-democratic" countries like Turkey, Israel or Saudy Arabia where human rights are not respected and which have all they fair relations with the USA. Why to libarate Irak and not to liberate Arabia? By the way, is not Ossama Bin Ladin from Arabia? Was not with Arabian money that thousands of inocent people, Americans and not Americans, were brutally murdered in NY on 11 September? Why does not your country, a majoritary Christian country, libarate the Holy Land (Palestinian territories according to UNO resolutions under Israel ocupattion)? Who is the person who decides who must and who must not be libarated from tyranny? When war should be used againts a country which does not respect UNO relolutions? May the Lord have mercy of all those who have fallen in this war, may the Lord grant them the true "freedom" of all their sins and all their pains in his heavenly kingdom.

This comment shows the fallacy of a "just war".

There is no such thing as a "just war". War is war. People loose their lives and their families in every war, does it make it ok just because someone proclaims it a "just war"? I think not.

Another thing, those who love to call this war unjust and love to protest against it and our government do not seem to have any ideas as what could have been done besides the war. Seems they just love to rant against the war instead of attempting to offer alternatives.

And do not say "inspections" as those have been tried and did nothing, 12 years of nothing. Also do not say "diplomacy" as diplomacy has never cured anything with out threat of arms behind it. That threat means nothing if it is never used.

We must also remember that we are talking about an Islamic nation here, the same goes with the PLO. One must understand islam. A treaty made by an muslim with a non-muslim is binding on the non-muslim but, as with contracts, is not binding on the muslim.


David

Francisco,

The difference between Iraq and the other countries you mentioned is this. Iraq with its chemical and biological weapons, combined with madman Saddam are a grave and imminent threat to the USA and most of the world.

It is important to know that Saddam's grave threat was the primary reason for the war. Liberating the Iraqi people is wonderful, but a secondary goal.

Countries you mentioned do not represent a grave and imminent threat to the USA. For them we are left to diplomacy.

Paul

Dear Paul,

The Psalmic quote you gave was, by the way, the motto of the Templar Knights who fought in the Holy Land!

One may still see it on Templar promontories in Europe along with their emblem, a Cross pattee in the centre of a Star of David.

And St Bernard of Clairvaux, in drawing up the Rule of the Templars, said emphatically that the Knight's job is to defend Christians and fight the enemies of Christendom.

Just some thoughts . . .

Alex

Yes. I heard the beautiful Non Nobis Domine (Psalm 115:1a) in the movie Henry V.

midi file:

http://www2.prestel.co.uk/church/templars/nonnobis.htm

(click on the speaker)

Paul

Dear Paul!

Bene!

Alex

Francisco,

When so-called 'international law' serves to buttress, protect, and legitimatize Stalinesque regimes, it is no longer 'law' but the mockery of law.

The Iraqi people--Christians and Muslims--have suffered too long to be mocked by the French, Russians, Germans, as well as other Arab nations and the UN, and treated like mere chess pieces in the lethal game of totalitarian political machinations.

In the hour of their freedom, may their joy be complete.

Dear Paromer,


You say "Iraq with its chemical and biological weapons, combined with madman Saddam are a grave and imminent threat to the USA and most of the world". My question is why were not chemical and biological weapons used by Sadam's Army? Was not with American suport that Sadam remained in the power for years in Irak (do not forget that USA and Sadam were aliees during the war with Iran?

You say "Countries you mentioned do not represent a grave and imminent threat to the USA. For them we are left to diplomacy". Taking into account that Ossama Bin Laden was a Saudy Arabian and that his organization Al-Kaida is supported by Arabian money if you do not consider this country an inminent threat to the USA, well, that is not my problem, but, please, do not not use the security argument for the war in Irak.

Dear Sonny,

Using your own words "Christians and Muslims have suffered too long" in many countries, Israel is one of them. Could you , please, answer to a question, Why the external policy USA, a country of Christian majority, has got so intense "Hebrew" colour?

During the I Gulf War Sadam Houseim as not killed or arrested by USA Army. During Afganistan War Ossama Bin Laden was not killed or arrested by USA Army. During the War of Kosovo Slovodam Milosevic was not killed he remained in the power till the Servian people decided that that was enought. During II Gulf War Sadam has disappeared and no body seems to know where he is. My question is: Were Sadam Houseim, Milosevic or Osama Bin Laden the reason of these wars? If the purpose of these wars was Sadam Houseim, Milosevic or Osama Bin Laden, I am sorry to say that you are not making your work.

Greetings from Europe (things seem always different in Europe)

Yours in Christ

I see that the question of the Chemical and Biological weapons has come up again. I find it very interesting that we have not found anything that could even come close to a checmical ot biological weapon. Where are they? If we had the proof that they were there, then where are they? We control the whole country, with the exception of one large city, and we have come up with nothing.
We, for the first time in our history, have been the aggressors here. If the president made the statement that we were invading because of moral reasons, okay, go for it, but we were looking for the WMD. Why don't we look in Anniston, Alabama where the worlds largest collection of chemical weapons are stored. I forget, who was the only country to ever use a nuclear weapon? United States, or Iraq.
On the moral grounds, what are we doing about the people who are starving in our own country, or perhaps all of the millions of men women and children who are without health insurance.
Before we go telling the world how to run their lives, we need to look out our own windows.

Peter

Peter,

I often wondered whether Johnson's "War on Poverty" and the trillions of dollars spent for decades actually improved things in our own backyard.

Be careful about the number game played in determining those without health insurance. My wife once refused her employer's insurance since the insurance thru my employer was better and it eliminated the red tape with primary and secondary insurance games. Hillary's healthcare task force still considered her 'uninsured' because she didn't have insurance thru her own employer. Don't believe every statistic out there.

The Church plays the wealthy preferance too. If I can only afford to pay-by-month for my son's parochial school tuition, I have to pay the full amount (the not so wealthy penalty). If I was more well to do and paid it up front before the school year begins, I get a ten percent discount (read: the wealthy benefit). In the meantime the tuition rises to become "more competitive" with public schools during a recession. My son has seen half of his friends since kindergarted leave due to high tuition. Then I get a letter in the mail telling me how the Catholic School system is trying their hardest to make an education at their schools more accessible. But for whom? The poor kids end up in the local public school system. Non-parishioners like me pay over 100% more. We used to get a smalll discount for being "practicing Catholics," but now are rolled into the same tuition structure with non-practicing Catholics and non-Christians. We all have to pay via a third party payment plan and have the tuition automatically withdrawn from our bank account to insure the school that they get their money. Its all about money.

But I can go on and on about this, but it only infuriates me to no end. We still opt to send him there since our own public school system is lousy - even after all those tax levies. The majority of the money goes to salaries and benefits, not the children. In a nearby school district the teachers fought for a levy "for the children" and got their pay raises (during a recession), but the children's parents then had to pick up additional costs for purchasing textbooks! But its all for the children. Teachers in Cleveland were complaining about possible budget cuts, and then stated that the children were their children. No they weren't. The children belonged to their parents and/or guardians, not the teachers.

Oh well.

Joe

Dear Cantor Joseph,

Your post indicates that you have much in common with G.K. Chesterton!

Congratulations!

Alex

Alex,

[blushing] Gee, thank you, but I don't really believe every man should own three acres and a cow. Can you imagine the pasture dance trying to walk down the street? I've led herds of cattle a few times from the fields and one must always watch for land mines (read: gastronomical notes from the cows). Watch that raised tail!

Here, bully, bully, bully, bully!!! Ha!

Joe Thur

Dear Cantor Joseph,

Never mind what others say - you are no bully!

A blessed Pascha to you and yours!

Alex

Dear Francisco,

At this point in time no one knows why Saddam Hussein did not use his chem/bio weapons. The answer will unfold in time.

The speculation is that Saddam's command structure was destroyed by U.S. cruise missiles and precision bombing early in the war and because of this there was neither the leadership nor communications technical ability to launch missiles or drone aircraft loaded with chem/bio weapons. Praise the Lord for that.

Osama's relationship to the Saudia Arabia government is not clear. We Americans are patient people. We will give that time too. Of course, Osama, himself is a hard core terorrist. A lot of resources are being spent to locate him and capture or kill him and his network.

Sincerely yours,

Paul

Today�s New York Times contains an editorial written by CNN chief news executive Eason Jordan that everyone who still thinks that this was an unjust war must read.

Excerpt:
Then there were the events that were not unreported but that nonetheless still haunt me. A 31-year-old Kuwaiti woman, Asrar Qabandi, was captured by Iraqi secret police occupying her country in 1990 for "crimes," one of which included speaking with CNN on the phone. They beat her daily for two months, forcing her father to watch. In January 1991, on the eve of the American-led offensive, they smashed her skull and tore her body apart limb by limb. A plastic bag containing her body parts was left on the doorstep of her family's home. (Click here to read editorial) [nytimes.com]

It is sad and horrible that innocents were killed during this war of liberation of the Iraqi people. We must pray for them and entrust them to the Lord�s care. However, far less innocent Iraqis were killed as part of this war than were typically tortured and murdered by Hussein in a given year. As the stories are told I find myself embarrassed that we, who call ourselves Christians, knowingly allowed this murderous dictator to do these things, especially for the last 12 years when we had the chance to remove him at the end of the Gulf War. We have much to answer for.

Peter,

Patience. The WMD will be found. Iraq is the size of California.
Saddam is a devious cookie. He kept them away from the UN for a decade.

The chemical weapons in Alabama are set for destruction, but sadly environmentalists are holding it up. They can't understand that the incinerator technology that will destroy the weapons is much safer that the chemical weapons themselves.

Sincerely,

Paul

Actually, we used to shout "butsy, butsy, butsy!" as we brought them in around the bunda.

And that is no bull.

God bless!
Joe

How strange of Saddam to equip his RG divisions with gas masks, special chem/bio warfare utility uniforms, and thousands upon thousands of syringes full of chem warfare antidote.

How strange to go to such trouble when--according to some in the media and on the internet--wmd are just an American illusion.

A very expensive 'illusion' Chemical Ali--of not so blessed memory--would say in his conversations with cousin Saddam, I'm sure.

We do know for certain, that the Saddamite regime used wmd on 5,000 Kurds--killed them all, even the village dogs--as well as on Iranian troops during the Iran-Iraq war. Thousands died. The only reason they did not use them on our troops is because even thugs are susceptible to the prudence produced by fear--the fear of American retribution and their personal demise. The same fear that prevents Usama bin Laden from exposing himself and doing any more than making verbal threats against an enemy he is too cowardly to confront personally.

This past and defunct Iraqi regime--from top to bottom--was nothing more than a regime of thugs. Since when have 'thugs' ever been known for bravery and courage? Never. In this context, they certainly have a great deal in common with the cowardly Usama, as well as the other contemporary master of thuggery and torture, Milosevic.

Sonny

Dear Francisco,

Probably for the same reason that Paris was not destroyed by the retreating German army in 1944. Hitler had ordered the destruction of the city, but the army officers did not carry out the order, because they were more decent men than their national leaders. Probably the same is true in Iraq.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear Friends,

I wonder how many of you have been out there in the trenches fighting for our country. Or have been representing your parrish in the Right for Life fight. Or could it be that the only time that you fight for change is on this fourm. I personally have stood on those lines and fought in two wars and continued to maintain the teachings of the church. In the first Gulf war I recieved a healthy dose of nerve agent and suffer to this day. In Somolia I have had fellow soldiers die in my arms. I have all the confidence in my elected leaders and can tell you that they have information that we will never know. So when they make their decisions they are much better informed. I can tell you that when you do get to the end results its really easy to understand why they made those decisions. From the sounds of some of the post you would want to start another crucade.So I think that my question to you is what are you doing to change the world?

Chad,

I honor you for your military service. It's because of men & women like you that the USA and others are free!

I do not like speaking of my activities because all glory goes to God.

President of my county Right to Life, Vice president of my state RTL. Prayers including the rosary with others that has shut down 2 abortion clinics.

I appreciate your questions. Being on this forum 1.5 years I'd say you'll find other committed
Christians here. Their stories must be inspiring.

God bless you,

Paul

I am currently watching the news here. I don't know if you have seen that there, but after Saddam's regime fell, people started sacking and plundering cities, the banks, the museums, private homes, stores, the embasies, and even the Sheraton Hotel!

Most of the scenes of peopel celebrating you cannot see so many people, people are at home afraid because thieves are entering the houses.

I just hope the troops of the United States, which have brought freedom to Iraq, bring some order too, this is a disaster. Or at least why don't they allow UN troops to go there as policemen? It's an enormous lack of charity to let people plundering, I think the UN can recover some credibility in the eyes of Americans, and Bush can get a lot of legitimacy in the eyes of the world if the UN troops go there.

Have a nice day

Do goats count? At least they have the courtesy of not "taking care of business" when you milk them. And that's no idle threat about the raised tail...you don't want those kind of pies.

I believe that the article that our Administrator contributed to this discussion, as well as some of the realistic comments listed here, give all the justification or "proof" that could possibly be needed, for the liberation of Iraq and the brave efforts of our coalition forces.

If for no other reason, the eradication of the spirit of fear and terror that was perpetuated by the Hussein regime through horrendous and unspeakable methods, particularly the pain and torture of other human beings, is reason enough that his brutal reign had to be put to an end.

I do not believe that God could be displeased in the least, that those of His people who were empowered to do so, felt it their "moral obligation" to say, "enough is enough - we cannot allow this abuse to continue another day - we will not let you suffer anymore." I surely hope that this message will be fully communicated to the Iraqi people, in the not always so balanced Arab press. However, deeds speak for themselves and many, as we have seen, are already grateful for what has occurred.

Yes, war is war and its consequences are unfortunate in terms of the human cost. However, to allow the desecration of human life to go on, by simply looking the other way or hoping that change will come through methods that have clearly failed or simply proven to be ineffective, is worse yet and can even be viewed as a means of enabling the suffering to continue.

I assure you all that those countries which opposed our efforts right up until the last moment, have their own self-serving reasons for doing so, which will clearly be revealed over the coming months. It is sad also, that whatever anticipated embarrassment or implications that contributed to their pathetic US bashing in front of the world community, were enough to cause the French, Germans and Russians to put their own interests over those of a people plagued with the most violent and unimaginable forms of suffering. They will have to account for their priorities, no doubt.

It is interesting that in the Book of Daniel, the one-time king of Babylonia, Nebuchadnezzar, is described as "oppressive - the worst in all the world." It will be read in our churches (Daniel 3: 1-56) during the Holy Saturday Vesper Divine Liturgy (Easter Vigil). In a sense, this was also prophetic in regards to the regime that has just come to an end.

Telling also, is the new tone these countries have used since the outcome of Iraq's liberation has begun to be manifested. Now of course, although unwilling to "pay the price" for the freedom of the Iraqi people, they wish to gain themselves from any future economic or political advantages to be had by the new situation. One should not reap the glory without first enduring the difficult and painful path that led to it.

May God continue to bless the people of Iraq and protect our troops. There is still much work to be done and many sacrifices to be made.

Fr. Joe