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An occassional poster, before his conversion to the Orthodox was Episcopalian. Part of his turning more and more to the East was that he was in charge of different prayer services in which he found himself using more and more of the prayers of the Eastern Churches. Sometimes he had to modify them a bit to fit their needs, but this led him more and more East. Seems he joined the Orthodox Church about two years ago. Maybe they are headed the same way.
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Catholic Gyoza Member
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I looked at the site and it seems to be a mish-mash of anything and everything. They have Ethiopic Processional Crosses, Japanese Bells, Liturgical Dancing, Inclusive Language, what appears to be a woman "priest", and other things peculiar to Episcopalianism but foreign to Orthodoxy (except the crosses.)
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Originally posted by Pani Rose:
An occassional poster, before his conversion to the Orthodox was Episcopalian. Part of his turning more and more to the East was that he was in charge of different prayer services in which he found himself using more and more of the prayers of the Eastern Churches. Sometimes he had to modify them a bit to fit their needs, but this led him more and more East. Seems he joined the Orthodox Church about two years ago... Yes he did!  btw, I've encountered this parish's website before. If you explore it deeper you'll find that they have a mural "icon" that includes St. Seraphim along with Malcolm X, Elizabeth the 1st and Martin Luther among others. They also have a Shinto shrine in thier sanctuary. One of the many things that made me re-examine my commitment to the Episcopal Church.
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Like Pani, I too see a glimmer of hope in this Episcopalian parish. I say this while being somewhat repulsed by the eclecticism, among other things...Despite that, there seems to be a fundamentally "catholic" affirmation that runs through the liturgical life there. They appear to want to see themselves as a "bridge" to various cultural expressions of the Gospel.
Again, I'm trying to look on the bright side. If this were a Latin Catholic parish, I'd be throwing my hands up (or throwing up), though not all of it is "bad".
IMHO,
Gordo
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What can you say? They are not members of the "True Faith." They do not have a valid priesthood. They are playing Church.
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The building appears to be dedicated to the worship of multi-culturalism.
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Yes he did!  btw, I've encountered this parish's website before. If you explore it deeper you'll find that they have a mural "icon" that includes St. Seraphim along with Malcolm X, Elizabeth the 1st and Martin Luther among others. They also have a Shinto shrine in thier sanctuary. One of the many things that made me re-examine my commitment to the Episcopal Church. David I was so glad you came East. The more we chatted at night the more I could see where your heart was. I wondered how long it would take, and I am glad I was not disappointed. It sure is a lot easier to share the prayers now isn't it. Like Pani, I too see a glimmer of hope in this Episcopalian parish. I say this while being somewhat repulsed by the eclecticism, among other things...Despite that, there seems to be a fundamentally "catholic" affirmation that runs through the liturgical life there. They appear to want to see themselves as a "bridge" to various cultural expressions of the Gospel.
IMHO,
Gordo Gordo we are eternal optimists. I tend to look for positive things in everything. But I didn't look at close as you guys did. It sounds like these guys were right... Again, I'm trying to look on the bright side. If this were a Latin Catholic parish, I'd be throwing my hands up (or throwing up), though not all of it is "bad"....Ray S.
The building appears to be dedicated to the worship of multi-culturalism...Apotheoun In a way it sounds like they go for whatever doctrine tickles their fancy. Just what Scripture says, they won't go for sound doctrine.
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I hate to say this, but in spite of their icons, they seem like nut-jobs to me. God bless, Karen
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Originally posted by MizByz1974: I hate to say this, but in spite of their icons, they seem like nut-jobs to me.
God bless,
Karen [/b]I hate to say this but because of thier icons they seem like nut-jobs to me. Elizabeth the 1st dancing with St. Seraphim and Malcolm X? WOW!
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From that parish's website: http://www.saintgregorys.org/Liturgy/Photos/10am/Thanksgiving.html The Presider prays the Anaphora, concluding with the Sanctus and Benedictus. The clergy and Deacons fill the chalices and break the Bread into quarters. The Presider and Deacons lift the Gifts, turning around. "The Gifts of God for the People of God. Holy things for holy people." The people respond: "One is holy, one is Lord. Jesus Christ, to the glory of God, our Mothering Father. Amen." presider ? "Bread" ? "our Mothering Father"? They are trying, God have mercy, but they are so far from the truth. -- John
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Originally posted by Apotheoun:
The building appears to be dedicated to the worship of multi-culturalism. Well said, Todd. Excellent. That explains my gut feeling of revulsion. And Pani, I like to look at the positive, only because I like to follow the Augustinian principle outlined in his confessions regarding sin - that even in our sin we aim at some perceived good, even if it is through illegitimate means. For this parish, the perceived good is rediscovering a more "catholic" sense of the Gospel. Of course, you also see the projection of the whims of many who have been given pastoral charge over the parish. Gordo
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I hate to say this but because of thier icons they seem like nut-jobs to me. Elizabeth the 1st dancing with St. Seraphim and Malcolm X? WOW! [/QB] Good point. God bless, Karen
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Such syncretism fails to really witness to any objective faith, as it cannot be clearly discerned through all of the conflicting manifestations. The only thing that comes to my mind is Barney's song or something along those lines.
FDD
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I have to agree with Father Deacon Diak. I carefully spent some time reading over the various parts of their website. While their intentions is to serve and be faithful to God in their statements, their entire liturgical expression is a free-for-all that holds very little true to any tradition or rite. It reminds one of the old Chinese menu, a little from column A and a little from column B. Throw in elements that are completely foreign to either Byzantine, Anglican, or Roman traditions, and it truly is a smorgasbord.
Instead of spiritually directing, it seems more or less to be something of a free-for-all that will encourage confusion.
Just my personal thoughts.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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God, our Mothering Father.
Is it wrong to use the word 'puck' for this? It makes me sick!
What is wrong with men being men - he is FATHER!
Pani Rose
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I was wondering when someone would investigate further...especially the icons, the Church might appear to be on the right path when you take a quick glance but when really looked at they are way off course...sad, I've seen many go that route...
PAX
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Originally posted by Pani Rose:
[b]God, our Mothering Father.
Is it wrong to use the word 'puck' for this? It makes me sick!
What is wrong with men being men - he is FATHER!
Pani Rose [/b] tHERE are elements in the Old Testament where God is given attributes of a mother. Not that we should call God our "Mother" but those elements are there. We shouldn't ever assign our sex roles to Almighty God!
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I don't think of the first person of the Trinity as having a physical body, but Jesus did say "Father"...
I think of some the good folks I left behind in the Episcopal church, wish some of them would sail out of the Thames and down to the Bosphoras with me. Sigh.
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You might send your friends W. B. Yeats' poem Sailing to Byzantium. I've always enjoyed it!
Incognitus
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Originally posted by ebed melech:
Like Pani, I too see a glimmer of hope in this Episcopalian parish. I say this while being somewhat repulsed by the eclecticism, among other things...Despite that, there seems to be a fundamentally "catholic" affirmation that runs through the liturgical life there. They appear to want to see themselves as a "bridge" to various cultural expressions of the Gospel.... not all of it is "bad". Well put. Every few years somebody e-mails me the URL of this church fully expecting me, because of my theology and churchmanship, to hate it. They're dead wrong about a lot of things but I don't. It's artistically better than run-of-the-mill Novus Ordo and I see bright, creative people who simply need to be planted in 'the real thing'.
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I still have my Anglican Prayer Beads. I used them for the Jesus Prayer, which got me interested in Eastern Christianity which got me into the Orthodox Church.
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Let's all dress up and play "church"!
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Originally posted by Jessup B.C. Deacon: Let's all dress up and play "church"! I have dibs on the blue vestments. 
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I must say ... I have never seen anything quite like St.Gregory's. As a traditionalist Western Orthodox Bishop I see a great deal wrong with what is on that website. I understand the need to have Liturgy fulfill the needs of the people served ... but at the same time ... things like this are almost a sacrilege to the purity that is meant to exist in authentic Liturgicality.
The Most Rev. Mark Pultorak
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Bishop Mark,
Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!
Welcome to the forum.
Looking at your website, I saw that the Divine Liturgy used is:
Divine Liturgy of St. Walter Propheta
I am not able to find this Divine Liturgy in print on the internet. Do you have resources as to where it is published?
Thank you and welcome.
In Christ,
Michael
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Good Morning!
The Liturgy of St. Walter Propheta ... otherwise known as The Divine Liturgy for 20th Century Christians was composed in the mid 1960's by Archbishop Walter Propheta with the assistance of an Orthodox Theologian from Fordham University in the Bronx, NY. It is basically an adaptation of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. It was long lost until very recently when the retired Metropolitan of The American Orthodox Catholic Church - Propheta Jurisdiction found it in some papers. The AOCC - Propheta has resurrected it and it is now in permenent use.
The Most Rev. Mark Pultorak
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Originally posted by BishopMark:
Good Morning!
The Liturgy of St. Walter Propheta ... otherwise known as The Divine Liturgy for 20th Century Christians was composed in the mid 1960's by Archbishop Walter Propheta with the assistance of an Orthodox Theologian from Fordham University in the Bronx, NY. It is basically an adaptation of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. It was long lost until very recently when the retired Metropolitan of The American Orthodox Catholic Church - Propheta Jurisdiction found it in some papers. The AOCC - Propheta has resurrected it and it is now in permenent use. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm Anhelyna - reflectively
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Ah yes - an 'orthodox jurisdiction' I think the term is "Otherdox". Andrew
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Reminds me of when I was in the Pagan Religions... Most of them took what ever they liked and threw it together too.
I remember one ASATRU (Norse Pagan) who had no patience with these types of pagan...
She simply said "Yeah.. kids mix soft drinks together too and think it is good."
I had seen this site before, but I went through it again, and simply just had to shake my head. This shows the very reasons why the Episcopal Church is falling apart.
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Regardless of our personal opinions about various irregular status/non-canonical/ind-movement churches, I think that we need to keep our comments courteous. Courtesy is one of the aspects that distinguishes the Byzantine Forum from many other Eastern Christian lists and forums, and I'd hate to see us lose it!
Just my .02
Dave
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Well ... I came here thinking I might find some welcome. I guess I was wrong. I ask the Moderators to please remove me from this forum. I am not about to go through again what I and the AOCC have been put through on other forums. Goodbye all and God bless you.
The Most Rev. Mark Pultorak
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From their website: The Patriarch, Hierarchs and Clergy of the AOCC - Propheta possess valid and verifiable lines of Apostolic Succession from the Russian, Albanianm Coptic, Old Catholic and Old Roman Catholic Churches. Full Apostolic Succession is available upon request. Please contact the Patriarch Are they serious?
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Originally posted by Ray S.: From their website:
The Patriarch, Hierarchs and Clergy of the AOCC - Propheta possess valid and verifiable lines of Apostolic Succession from the Russian, Albanianm Coptic, Old Catholic and Old Roman Catholic Churches. Full Apostolic Succession is available upon request. Please contact the Patriarch HOW CONVENIENT!!!!!!!!!!! haven't seen anything like that since the Universla Life Church peddled ordinations via the mail. even Madalyn Murray O'Hair got herself ordained after she sent in her five dollars. hey, American enterprise, nothing like it! (thank God). Much Love, Jonn
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It amazes me how so many are so quick to jump to judgemnent before getting to know a person or understand a group. Is this the way the Savior presented himself ... I do not think so. Sounds to me like those of you who have decided to engage in this judgementalism might want to avail yourselves of the Sacrament of Penance for the sins of pride and bigotry.
And btw ... we are not a Clergy Mill. I take great umberage at being compared to the Universal Life Church and Madeline Murray O'Hare. But I guess it may do me no good to defend myself among people who seek to act other than Christ and the Apostles. Rest assured ... The American Orthodox Catholic Church is not going to fade into oblivion anytime soon.
And also for your info ... The AOCC was validated by Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras, one of Archbishop Propheta's Consecrators was consecrated by mandate of Athenagoras and validated by the Patriarch of Alexandria, and Archbishop Propheta worked very closely with Archbishop Iakovos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of New York.
The Most Rev. Mark Pultorak
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As a traditionalist Western Orthodox Bishop I see a great deal wrong with what is on that website BishopMark, What are your church's position(s) on homosexuality and contraception?
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I am not able to find this Divine Liturgy in print on the internet. Do you have resources as to where it is published? Michael, I have not seen their liturgy but I'm sure you're not in anyways deprived for not having seen it. I would venture a guess that it contains many of the salient features of other 20th/21st century liturgies: inclusive language, omitted litanies etc.
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THE AMERICAN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH - PROPHETA JURISDICTION
ORTHODOX BUT NOT EASTERN, CATHOLIC BUT NOT PAPAL That quote is taken directly from the banner heading of your website, and your sub-heading says it all. We are neither Eastern Orthodox nor Roman. We blend the two systems of theology and belief so all may have an experience of Church that is relatable to them. That quote is taken directly from Question #1 of your FAQ page. No need to judge your 'church' - the material on your website does that quite adequately. ~Isaac
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The Patriarch, Hierarchs and Clergy of the AOCC - Propheta possess valid and verifiable lines of Apostolic Succession from the Russian, Albanianm Coptic, Old Catholic and Old Roman Catholic Churches. Full Apostolic Succession is available upon request. Please contact the Patriarch From The Acts of The Holy Apostles 18: Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, 19: saying, "Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." 20: But Peter said to him, "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21: You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22: Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23: For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity." 24: And Simon answered, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."
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Looks like they've got your number, Mr Pultorak (alias Bishop Mark).
Your own site tells the truth, that you are neither Eastern Orthodox nor Roman Catholic. You're also not Western Orthodox because there are only two Western Rite groups in the Orthodox communion, one under Antioch and the other under ROCOR. And there are no Western Orthodox bishops.
Nobody's being a big meanie by pointing out that you're not what you claim to be on this board.
As I like to say I can respect anybody who's got a real congregation, who's doing the work of a pastor. Questions about one's church's orders are separate. (And the Orthodox don't play the 'valid lines of succession' game.)
One's 'personal opinions' about 'non-canonical' groups aren't the issue - it's honesty.
Walter Propheta is infamous as part of the vagante world. He wasn't an Orthodox bishop. Ever.
I'm fairly sure Archbishop Iakovos and other Orthodox didn't concelebrate with him. Can you prove otherwise? My source is somebody Propheta ordained in the 1960s - they didn't.
Just like no bishop in the Orthodox communion concelebrates with you.
And I don't think a real Orthodox academic would have helped a fake Orthodox bishop make up his own liturgy.
And no Orthodox group has canonised Propheta nor has churches named after St Frances Cabrini, a non-Orthodox saint.
Even if you canonise Propheta and use your own rite, you still get my respect if you are in fact a pastor. But when you start telling fibs about yourself and your church, like calling yourself Orthodox, you lose that.
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The Most Rev. Mark Pultorak
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And your purpose in posting that is ???
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