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Neil,

What is vagantes ? Now I am

Mary Jo :p

I think Carol is an awesome person, not giving up on the byzantineites and all the nonsence.

Thank you Carol!

Geee I wonder if we have driven John to having totally grey hair yet?

Porter let me know when you find out

Mary Jo,

Actually vagantes is a non-word - sloppy shorthand pluralization of episcopus vagante. The term literally means a 'wandering bishop'.

The usage originally developed in medieval times when episcopal benefices (and orders) were not uncommonly conferred on the basis of a hierarch's relationship or allegiance to the local secular power, were sometimes bought, often granted as political plums, or obtained through nepotism. Depending on circumstances, such bishops may or may not have received a benefice (a diocese or other canonical entity that carried an income with it) and some who did receive such later lost it, as the politics of the kingdom shifted.

A change at the top could cause a hierarch to find himself, literally, out in the street (if not worse). Others were canonically deposed for various reasons. The commonality between the two was the lack of a consistent place to rest one's head, so to speak.

These might then travel about, having no See any longer, seeking a sympathetic court in which to take up residence, preaching, and supporting themselves by donations or even granting blessings for a fee, for food, for shelter, or for protection. With no fixed place of abode or jurisdiction, these men came to be called episcopi vagante, literally wandering bishops (also episcopi ambulante or episcopi vagabondaggio).

While they no longer wander, in modern times, the term has come to be applied to 'bishops', sometimes validly ordained, sometimes not, who claim to be of a mainstream religious belief, but aren't in communion with the established Church(es) of that faith.

They found their own little ecclesiastical jurisdictions, serve obscure liturgies in their family rec room, wear elaborate vesture, anoint themselves with titles that would make the Ecumenical Patriarch or the Pope of Rome look like street-corner preachers by comparison, and style their ecclesia with any combination of nomenclature that suggests their ambivalence of belief, commitment to everything and nothing.

While vagante bishops were historically a Catholic-oriented phenomenon, sometime in the late 1800s and early 1900s, the East and the Orient beckoned and there was a rush, led by folks like Father (later "Bishop", then "Patriarch") Joseph Renee Vilatte, to seek episcopal orders from disaffected actual hierarchs (and a few who were self-styled) from those traditions. This, combined with some renegade Easterners on these shores, notably Abdullah Aftimios Ofiesh (of the Syrian Orthodox) and Antoine Joseph Aneed (of the Melkite Catholics), assured that the East could and would have its own vagante episcopi.

Whether it was the Eastern/Oriental mystery, mysticism, ceremony, titles, vesture, or what, that brought about this interest, we'll never know. On the other side, I suspect that actually being given recognition as important by someone and the opportunity to export their Churches to the West played parts in the willingness of some consecrating hierarchs to lay hands on those who went East seeking episcopal ordination.

So, Catholics no longer have a monopoly on vagante bishops; all of the hierarchical Churches which emphasize the importance of their Apostolic Succession - Latin, Eastern, and Oriental Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopalian, and Lutheran (at least in the 'High Church' divisions of the latter two) can point to vagantes whose origins lie with them.

Some potential hallmarks of a vagante, in no particular order, are that:

• they have grandiose titles (e.g., patriarchs, primates, supreme archbishops, and similar styling abounds among the genre);
• they vest in liturgical finery that would be the envy of a member of the papal court in its hour of greatest opulence;
• they are surrounded by a small cadre of clerics with equally important titles, including sometimes multiple bishops, each of whom has been accorded a piece of the universe as their episcopal jurisdiction;
• they post elaborate hierarchical genealogies on their websites or in their publications, purporting to prove their Apostolic Succession;
• they offer the opportunity for ordination to the priesthood, and perhaps even to the episcopacy, to those who apply by e-mail or letter outlining appropriate credentials for same or who indicate a willingness to undertake a course of study (for a fee);
• they 'float' from one 'Church' to another, as there are splits in their ranks, frequently as a consequence of in-fighting among the leadership;
• the name of their 'Church' frequently incorporates terms like "Catholic", "Orthodox", "Apostolic", often combined in imaginative ways;
• the name of their 'Church' often suggests that it is a jurisdiction of, a branch of, or otherwise connected with an established mainstream Church or that it is a free-standing canonical jurisdiction (e.g., a patriarchate, an archdiocese, a primature, a diocese) of such an established, mainstream, or canonical Church;
• the name of their 'Church' suggests an ethnicity of origin that is belied by the appearance or surnames of the hierarchs and/or by any apparent connection with a mainstream Church of similar ethnicity or national origin;
• their 'Churches' frequently are 'in communion' with other 'Churches' whose hierarchs display much the same characteristics as themselves;
• their 'Church' consists of a single edifice, a storefront, an altar in their garage or family rec room, or lacks any street address, apparently existing only in the ethereal plane;
• those whose 'Churches' have 'parishes' will sometimes be shown (e,g., on websites) to each worship according to different rubrics and to even express different theological tenets;
• their 'Churches' may mix theological doctrine with New Age, Eastern, spiritualistic, psychological, even alternative and holistic health concepts;
• they use obscure, sometimes historical, sometimes apocryphal, liturgies in their worship.

In recent times, the term ecclesius vagante has been coined to refer to the 'Churches' these folks establish, but it doesn't really express a meaningful concept in the same way that episcopus vagante does.)

True vagante have to be distinguished from those who have broken from their parent Churches, but have established an actual ecclesial entity, schismatic and/or heretical in the eyes of the parent, but with a level of respectability not usually accorded to those labeled vagante. To be fair, some of what are now considered mainstream Churches, though schismatic, heretical, non-canonical, or of irregular status, would, at their inception, have been deemed the product of an episcopus vagante.

Many years,

Neil

Neil, check the site of the group I posted at Church News under "Vagante "Orthodox bishops" in the US?" These folks have been in Knoxville for perhaps 10-15 years. Ever hear of this guy? While conversing with him some 10 or so years ago, I remember him saying they were Old Catholic.

Charles

Neil -

That first paragraph made me laugh uproariously! My husband must be thinking I am insane!

And I must be making progress because I did understand. I did. I did.

And than you for encouraging me to ask questions. I'm feeling better and more comfortable asking questions now. A large portion of what I don't understand is related to the issues of difference between the Latin Church and the Orthodox or the Eastern Churches.

But I've ordered two of the books that were recommended and I'm looking forward to learning more!

Awww shucks! Thank you all for answering my very basic questions and sharing with me your wisdom, insights and experiences!

Neil,

Many thanks. Now I know more than I did yesterday. I have heard of these bishops but
not the term. And I am also wondering about "Old Catholic" Not sure how well established they are and whether their bishops would be vagantes?? I don't think they are a splinter groups so maybe??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pani Rose,

Your question to me.

[Porter let me know when you find out ]

See, Neil's fine post above in which he answers my question about the vagantes.

In Christ,

Mary Jo

Charles,

Yes, I'm aware of Mar Michael and Father Ned. The Antiochian Catholic Church in America is neither Antiochian nor Catholic in the sense that we would ordinarily understand those terms.

This Church is beyond the realm of what are usually termed by the Orthodox as Non-canonical Churches or Churches of Irregular Status. Those labels, in common parlance, are ordinarily applied on the basis of a Church neither being recognized as autocephalous or autonomous by competent Orthodox authority nor under the omophor of an acknowledged patriarch. The factors common to Churches ordinarily described as "non-canonical" is that they are essentially mainstream ecclesia (e.g., Old Believers, Old Calendarists, ROCOR, Macedonian Orthodoxy). Old Catholics and some others of that ilk are the Catholic equivalency to the Non-Canonical Churches of Orthodoxy. In both instances, it can usually be agreed that such ecclesia espouse defined beliefs consistent with historical Orthodoxy or Catholicity (as the case may be), despite occasional differences in interpretation, but reject traditional authority within the Church from which they descend.

More differences than that and one enters the murky world of the "independent Catholic/Orthodox movements" (while such ecclesia actually tend to describe themselves as being of one or the other movement - Catholic or Orthodox, there's such overlap that, for all intents and purposes, it is really one). In my mind, this is where two paths diverge - there are:

• "independents", well-meaning and sincere in their belief that they represent a valid theological tradition and who seek to provide a spiritually-nourishing home to their faithful
• vagante, the dress-up crowd, playing at being a "Church"

In my opinion, these folks don't satisfy the criteria I described for non-canonical. Despite references to various Orthodox and Catholic Churches and traditions, they:

• don't fit the mold of classical Old Catholicism.
• have neither any affiliation with or relationship to any of the Oriental Orthodox Churches
  
  Like the Church of Antioch-Malabar Rite, from which it is descended (it was granted autocephalus status from that body back in 1991)the Antiochian Catholic Church in America has essentially tried to wrap itself in traditions that aren't its own, whether because those who adhere to it actually believe that they are fulfilling a genuine spiritual purpose or to mislead folks, we'll likely never know.
  
  They claim their episcopal lineage from the so-called Spruit Line. Herman Spruit, founder of their parent, spawned a number of bodies labeling themselves Antiochian (at least two of which are headquartered in TN); now deceased, he is a somewhat legendary character in both the independent and vagante world. Since he claimed at least Syriac, Old Catholic, and Melkite episcopal lineage, his episcopal DNA is a much sought one. I'm surprised to hear that this particular body is citing itself as Old Catholic since their liturgical and theological bent (even their name) is focused on the Syriac connection that they claim (as is usually the case with Spruit's ecclesial offspring).
  
  Are they "independents" or vagante (a question that is only valid if one is willing to subscribe to my personal theory separating the former from the more derogatory connotations of the latter term)? Probably the former; they are more low-key than most, localized, and apparently serve a small body of faithful with some sincerity of conviction for their beliefs. I've never heard anything suggesting that Mar Michael or Father Ned are self-promoters, engaged in their ministry for any nefarious purposes. Albeit their message is not one of true Catholicity or Orthodoxy, there are many out there who worry me more than them. The ACCA is definitely among the most benign of Spruit's descendents.
  
  It should be noted that, under the Augustinian theory of Apostlic Succession unfortunately subscribed to by the Catholic Church, there is a possibility that their orders, and consequently their sacraments, are valid though illicit. Vilatte, their claimed historical source for Syriac orders, and Mathews, their Old Catholic progenitor, were both potentially valid holders of orders; however, Aneed, their claimed Melkite connection, almost certainly did not have valid episcopal orders.
  
  Many years,
  
  Neil

Mary Jo,

"Old Catholic" is a term used by any number of folk - some few of whom are actually Old Catholics. The short answer is "yes" and "no"

Someone asked an almost identical question a few days ago, in either this or another thread. I started an answer, distinguishing the various usages and their validity, but haven't had an opportunity to finish it. Will try and get to it tonight or tomorrow; it's taking a while because of some of the nuances that I think people need to understand.

Many years,

Neil

Actually vagantes is a non-word - sloppy shorthand pluralization of episcopus vagante. The term literally means a 'wandering bishop'.

Thanks Neil I have seen the word but never figured it out.

Hey I wonder if we could start a dictionary on here of Eastern Terminology? Somehow be able to do so alphabetically so those of us who are not walking dictionaries could have a ready reference point. I know it would really help me when I am reading some of the discussions that take place on here. Maybe someone that has time could work on compiling one. Just a suggestion.

Pani Rose

Neil,

Charles mentions "Old Catholic" in his post a few above on this thread. Someone else might have as well, but his post got me thinking and that is why I asked.

I will check this again in the event in time you or another posts on "Old Catholic" or "Old Catholics."

Thanks,

God Bless you.

Mary Jo

Whenever someone speaks of the Old Catholics, I think of the folks out in Oregon they use to talk about (well at least I that is where they were)- the way they dressed and everything. I thought it was all really interesting. Or maybe they are Old Timers Anyway I am sure someone knows what I am talking about because apparently I don't --- happily so though I might add

Pani Rose

I know, the sans-a-belts are a dead giveaway for identifying Old Catholics.

Also when trying to identify which camp a wandering bishop comes from, just go by his Pateritsa. Look for a drapery rod or a bed post and you'll know where their episcopal lineage is derived from.

OK now it's my time to be

help !

OK, you may remember this discussion its what I was thinking of, and I had the name all wrong. It is Old Believers...

02-15-2003 08:59 PM Does any one know about Mt Angel Abbey and Old Ritalists? I've heard they've got an Old Believers museum and that one of their priest-monks is actually an Old Rite Byzantine Catholic. Having read about the Russian Catholic Church, I'm interested to find out whether there are still any 'Old Believers in communion with Rome'. If I understood rightly, there are still Old Ritualists in the Catholic Church, in one abbey at least!
https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000189#000008

I'm happy, I'm so happy hey at least I figured it out myself...

Pani Rose