www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Wal-Mart Brings Back Christmas

Ryan,

I know that you are never persuaded by common sense or proper context of Church Teaching! :p

Let�s look at what you quoted from the Church�s social doctrine:

302. Remuneration is the most important means for achieving justice in work relationships.[659] The �just wage is the legitimate fruit of work�.[660]

The justice of the wage is proportional to the amount of fruit produced. Unskilled labor produces less fruit than skilled labor. Jobs that offer those who need skills to acquire them justly pay those workers less than they would pay skilled workers. A high school kid who takes a job stocking shelves is justly paid less than someone who has 30 years experience as a plumber. That is why this category of jobs is not intended to serve those who need to make a living wage.

They commit grave injustice who refuse to pay a just wage or who do not give it in due time and in proportion to the work done (cf. Lv 19:13; Dt 24:14-15; Jas 5:4).

In due time and proportion to the work done. When the work done is simple the proportion of remuneration will be less. When the work done is complex and challenging the proportion of remuneration will be more.

A salary is the instrument that permits the labourer to gain access to the goods of the earth. �Remuneration for labour is to be such that man may be furnished the means to cultivate worthily his own material, social, cultural, and spiritual life and that of his dependents, in view of the function and productiveness of each one, the conditions of the factory or workshop, and the common good�.[661]

This section defines what a salary is and how it is to be used. It clearly relates the justice of the salary to the �the function and productiveness of each�. A starter job helps man to gain access to goods of the earth by teaching him the skills with which he may become a more productive member of the society. As he becomes more productive he has better job opportunities and his salary increases commensurate to his productivity. As his salary increases he is better able to gain access to the goods of the earth.

The simple agreement between employee and employer with regard to the amount of pay to be received is not sufficient for the agreed-upon salary to qualify as a �just wage�, because a just wage �must not be below the level of subsistence�[662] of the worker: natural justice precedes and is above the freedom of the contract.

This is the only section that is directly applicable to our discussion. I addressed at length earlier but will summarize.

A wage that is below the level of subsistence can be just if the job offered is not intended to provide a subsistence wage (living wage). Currently in the United States there are plenty of jobs that pay a living wage. The only people who do not have access to such jobs are those who will 1) don�t have the skills to be productive enough to justify a living wage, 2) don�t want such a job (many young and elderly) and 3) live in areas where unemployment remains high (places like Appalachia). The solution for those who do not have the skills is to obtain them (working at McDonald�s or Wal-Mart for a year can give you skills to move up somewhere else). Those who don�t want career jobs are already happy at Wal-Mart. Those who live in areas with prolonged unemployment can move to those areas that have opportunities for starter and career jobs.

I pay the high school kid that cuts my tiny front yard $5 each time he cuts it. This is a very just wage for his effort. It is not, however, a living wage. It is well below the level of subsistence. That�s OK because he is not looking for a job that pays him a subsistence wage. He is unconcerned about that at this point in his life.

A retired neighbor has a handyman business. He cleans rain gutters out for $25. That type of stuff. One or two jobs a day do not give him a living wage. His income is well below the level of subsistence. That�s OK because he is not looking for a job that pays him a subsistence wage. He is unconcerned about that at this point in his life.

The Wal-Marts and McDonald�s of America are doing almost the same thing for the same type of people. They give people a start an offer them an opportunity to learn skills that you can�t get by not working. They are not intended as career jobs.

Natural justice includes wages based upon productivity. The Church understands and is OK with this.

John

Dear John:

Do you really think you have a monopoly of knowledge as to what constitutes "common sense or proper context of Church Teaching"? And why are so eager to be an apologist on behalf of greedy corporations?

Ryan

Bill,

You bring up good questions that would make great discussions (in appropriate threads). The answer is not straightforward. Taxes take a vasty higher percentage of income than they did generations ago. People everywhere need the biggest and best house and car, and the latest and greatest toy (many don�t know how to live frugally).

A former co-worker of mine and his wife decided when they had their first child to find a way where the wife could stay at home and be a full-time mother to their children (a full time job that doesn�t pay a subsistence wage!). They moved out of this area (to a place where housing is less expensive), purchased a modest home, and stopped getting new cars as soon as the old ones were paid for. I�ve lost touch with them (that was almost 15 years ago) but I understand from mutual friends that they are doing just fine. It can be done!

I won�t mention that I have relatives where the husband and wife both work and have a combined income of over $200,000, a mini-mansion of a house, four vehicles (two bought this year). I really won�t mention that they are fairly miserable and up to their ears in debt!

John

Ryan,

A monopoly of knowledge? No. Just more experience in studying it and applying it in the real world than you have.

I�m no an apologist for greedy corporations. But I also don�t start from the position that all successful companies are automatically guilty of being greedy. Wal-Mart became a huge company because it provided desired goods at the most competitive price. If their jobs were really paying unjust wages no one would be working at Wal-Mart (there are lots of other, better paying jobs to be had). Yet we see that when a new Wal-Mart was slated to open near Chicago 25,000 people applied for the 300 jobs it was offering. Why do you think that these people were so eager to take wages that you consider unjust? Either your analysis of the situation is flawed or you are protecting some (in your opinion) even worse employers that these 25,000 people are fleeing from.

There is much I don�t like about the business practices of many companies, including Wal-Mart. But it is wrong not to consider that not all jobs are intended to be career jobs, the jobs that actually must pay a living wage. Wal-Mart is great for America!

John

Dear John,

As I said, I don't have the answers, and you're right, money can't buy happiness. As for my thoughts not being apprpriate to this thread, I concede and ask your forgiveness.

Bill

There is nothing to forgive!!! It's just a matter of good housekeeping.

PS: It's Ryan's turn to open a new bag of potato chips and put more beer in the 'fridge. Your turn is next Friday.

Wasn't this about Wal-Mart saying "Merry Christmas" to the customers or having the phrase in the store when it wasn't last year?

How we digress.

Dear Ryan,

I could not disagree with you more. I suggest that you study the content at:
http://www.mises.org

The Socialist agenda that you have so far described is unGodly and always hurts the Church and her people.

If you are so against organisations that provide a good value, (I don't really want you to do the following suggestions, I am just trying to prove a point) perhaps you should boycott the Byzantine Forum because the Moderators are not paid a living wage (or perhaps YOU should pay the Moderators a living wage , or perhaps you should stop going to Church because Priests are underpaid.

I repeat DO NOT do the aforementioned suggestions, their purpose is merely to prove a point.

John:
Aside from my reading of Holy Scripture and the Church's social teaching, there are three things that are an obstacle for me with respect to accepting some of your arguments-at least with respect to Wal-Mart (though not with all employers). You say that Wal-Mart is not a place for people seeking "career-type" jobs. I agree that there certainly are jobs that are not "career-type." My maternal grandfather was a watermelon farmer during summers-those who worked for him were generally very young men seeking extra money during the summer-not people seeking a career. But Wal-Mart puts out commercials suggesting that they are a good place for people seeking a career. Also, I would be more inclined to agree with you were it not for the tremendous disparity between earnings for shareholders and upper management and those earned by the employees working in the stores. Wal-Mart has made billionaires out of several members of the Walton have, and no telling how many millionaires-I think they can afford to be a bit more generous with their employees in the stores. Lastly, Wal-Mart is among the most hostile employers towards any efforts to unionize its employees. The Catholic Church affirms the rights of workers to unionize. I could accept some of the arguments you've made with respect to some companies. But not with Wal-Mart.
Sincerely,
Ryan

Dr Eric,
That's exactly what I was thinking. Without trying to sound rude, maybe some people want to start their own thread because this thread, started by myself, wasn't started to talk about the injustices in the wages and operations of Wal-Mart.
-Katie g

Centissimus Annus and Rerum Novarum teach the availibility of unions and the right of colective bargaining. Something WALMART employees (and many other employees) do not have. One really cannot use Catholic teaching to justify an unreconstructed 19th Century capitalism. It is just not there in the teaching. It might be conservative teaching but not Catholicism's social teaching.

katie, one cannot talk about Walmart objectively without mentioning these abuses and malpractices. If they want the good publicity , they must be able to stand a bit of needed criticism

the very "agenda" that you paint as "socialist" is actually the teaching of Popes!!

Brian,

Everbody is endowed by the creator with free will. One has the right to organize labor unions. One also has the right to not join labor unions. Try telling that to your union steward! One also has the right to work at WalMart. What you do not have the right to do is to impose your rights over mine. Sometimes in life, one must choose. By making choices, the natural chain of events is to eliminate other choices. By choosing to organize, one forfeits the right to work at WalMart. Let me paint a scenario for you. You and your spouse open a business. For convenience, lets call it Brian's House of Halushki and Lawnmower Repair. You and your spouse pour your life's savings into the business, and statistically, against the odds, it prospers. Business is doing so well, that you and your spouse decide to hire an employee to mix the cabbage and noodles and to change the oil in the lawnmowers, as capital gains taxes, federally mandated profit reports, OSHA regulations, Dept of Sanitation requirements, Health Inspector reviews and liability insurance paperwork take up 28 hours of your workday, and your lovely spouse, Olga, is occupied ladeling halushki into bowls and loading trucks with lawnmower engines. So you hire Stanley. You agree to pay Stanley $5.15 an hour, or whatever the current minimum wage is. So for a while, everyones is busy and happy. You smile as you pour over mounds of paperwork 28 hours a day. Stanley is content mixing the halushki while draining crankcase oil, and your lovely wife Olga has just negotiated a lower price from your cabbage and noodle supplier by arm wrestling him into submission. Then one day, Stanley shows up with some guy in a black suit with a white tie and dark glasses, smoking a cigar. Let's call him Guido. Guido pokes you in the chest with a fat finger, and informs you that you are no longer in control of your business, that it has been taken over by the International Brotherhood of Halushki Mixers and Crankcase Oil Drainers. From now on, Stanley will be paid $15.00 an hour plus health insurance at an additional $200.00 a month, plus profit sharing, plus a pension plan at an additional $400.00 a month. Also, Stanley will now have 28 days paid vacation each year, plus time and one half for working past 5:00 PM, as well as paid days off for Labor day, May Day, Lenin's Birthday and Bastille Day. And too bad if you don't like it, because if you resist, 50 goons from the International will show up at your business, overturning your mixing tables, setting fire to your trash bins, set up pickets in front of your storefront and terrorize your customers. And then to make matters even more interesting, you start to get anonymous phone calls in the middle of the night, threatening your children with bodily harm or worse if you do not agree to the union's demands. Your first reaction is of shock and disbelief. You have considerd Stanley to be almost one of the family. And now, he has turned on you. You get so mad, that you want to unchain Olga and let her deal physically with the 50 goons sitting on your doorstep, but as a Christian, you don't want to be responsible for the carnage that would undoubtably ensue. In no way, shape or form can you afford the unions demands, so tearfully, Olga and yourself close the doors to your business one last time and drive home. Confused, Stanley approaches Guido and says, "Hey, before I make $5.00 an hour and I happy make halushki and change oil. Now I no have nothing" Guido smiles as he puts his arm around Stanleys shoulder, making sure that Stanley can see the diamond encrusted Rolex under the sleeve of the Cartier suit, and tells him "Look, we got you a 300% raise, benefits , healthcare and the comraderie of your fellow workers. What more do you want? Oh, and by the way, you owe us $50.00 for Union dues plus $300.00 for initiation fees". Welcome to reality Brian.

Alexandr

Also, be aware that the current Pope Benedict is a staunch opponent of the Marxist "Liberation Theology" that is the basis of the agenda that you defend. See the Wikipedia definition of Liberation Theology below.

Alexandr

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology