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A man of conscience resigns from British Government over Iraq War.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2858957.stm

The article also shows that men and women of conscience remain within the government.

Whatever happened to "informed" conscience?

Dan Lauffer

It was informed (like Robin Cook hasn't been involved in Cabinet discussions for years and was the previous Foreign Secretary??)
As the article indicates, it was eloquent and one of the most impressive speeches from a resigning minister in many years. I don't see if you listened to the speech that you could say it was not informed. You might disagree with his arguments but it was certainly good points that he made for the anti-war case and it paid great tribute to both Blair and Jack Straw.

Informed by Christ and the Church? I don't know, but that is the "informed" I was talking about. Many people have held many government positions but that of itself does not suggest that they have an informed conscience.

Dan Lauffer

Oh Dan. I don't believe Robin Cook is a Catholic but if he were, the majority of CHurch figures to help him inform his conscience are against this war and call it unjust including the leader of the Roman Catholic Church. There is a the example of the Prince of Peace above all.

Dear Administrator:

You wrote: Just war theory involves a number of criteria. I agree that a war of defence versus third-party liberation fits the "just cause" and "appropriate authority" criteria better. (The latter by the way is particularly significant with regard to the prospect of action by the US to enforce a UN resolution in the absence of authorization by the UN.) On the other hand the argument of "imminent threat" is far more plausible in the present situation in the context of liberation versus war-on-terrorism. Likewise, as I mentioned before, ISTM, that while the probability of securing a better situation for enduring peace and justice by our invading Iraq and changing its regime is far clearer in the war of liberation that the war on terrorism. These latter two issues are the area in which IMO the case has not been made by the administration. (In contrast, in the action against the Taliban, our actions clearly fell within the realm of "just war". ) It is clear that there is room for disagreement on these issues, and that we will continue to disagree.

Well, the validity of an ad hominem argument is hardly related to its wildness, or to its being launched as an in-kind counter-attack. For the record, by the way, on this forum he was called
ignorant OR a liar; there is a something of a difference. (Back to A or B.)

I agree with the last three sentences. But certainly not the first. (The passage I quoted, just to be clear, was not penned by Bennett, but linked on his avot site.) First, the claim that is made is not simply that such voices exist, or that they are not rare, but that such ideas represent the "two main stripes" of critics (namely, "the blame-America-firsters, of course, who regard vigorous self-defense as the moral equal of terrorism ... [and the] moral lethargists. Offspring of the therapeutic culture, New Age spiritualism, and an entrenched multiculturalism suspicious of Western values...") This salvo is not a discussion of the weakness of opponents' arguments, but an implication of weaknesses of the opponent - made by distortion of arguments ("regard vigorous self-defense as the moral equal of terrorism") or just through creative arm-chais psychobabbleanalysis ("New Age spiritualism", "entrenched multiculturalism", "stuck in th sixties"). It is, IMO, classically ad hominem; I am very sorry that we continue to disagree on the validity of this kind of argumentation.

There is no hint, moreover, that the idea that these represent the "two main stripes" has any basis in fact. (No hint that opinions were systematically surveyed, nor how opinions were factored to reveal the "main stripes", etc.) I think that it is safe to say the Pope, the Catholic Bishops, the Orthodox Bishops, the posters on this forum as not belonging to either of these stripes. And neither are those who supported out efforts in Afghanistan and/or the Gulf war, but remain unconvinced in the present situation. So about whom are the writers talking?

About the conditions for a war to be just, I recall Fr. Iscara's article ( a Roman priest), inspired in Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, Q.40, Art.1). I think I've posted this before but it would be helpful to refresh the memory about the "just war" phylosophy:

1. The first condition for a war to be just is that it is declared by a legitimate authority. It is certainly true that the US Congress has the authority to declare a war for the self-defense of US territory or citizens, and that its concern for the common good of the US would help for the common good of the globe as a whole, given the mutual interdependence of nations.

However, it does not at all have the authority to act as an international policeman. That would be to attack the sovereignty of other nations. It is true, however, that the people can rebel against an unjust ruler who has lost his right to rule, and appeal for foreign aid. This does not appear to be the case in Iraq, with the exception of exiled liberal dissidents. No nation has the right to declare war on another nation that is not a threat to it. In this case it has not been demonstrated that Iraq posesses and can use and will use massive destruction weapons against the US.

2. The second condition for a just war is that there must be a just cause, such as defense against an unjust attack or recuperation of what has been unjustly taken. A presumed existence of weapons of mass destruction could not constitute a just cause. Another aspect of the just cause is that it must be proportionate to the evil, death, destruction, and human suffering that could be caused by the war. Since modern wars are indiscriminate and attack civilians, this one will cause suffering to the citizens of Iraq, and maybe to the American people if it causes a reaction by terrorists. There is a manifest lack of proportionality here that makes any reasonable person wondering about the real reason for this war. If it is meant to guarantee the supply of oil, it would be manifestly unjust.

3. The third condition described is a right intention, meant to be truly the re-establishment of justice which is aimed at. However, this is not at all the case. Iraq has done no injustice to the US. The absence of a right intention is also manifest by the fact the US is not insisting that Israel give up to UN demands as it is with Iraq. To the contrary, the embargo against Iraq has caused the death of thousands of children.

Lawrence,

No need to apologize, my friend. The issue wouldn't be about dissent for the wording is actually about speech. Dissent is a particular genre of speech.

You see, Iraq doesn't have that constitution you consider the world's finest. Would you be able to enjoy the same freedom to express your liberties in his country? As my late baba once said, "Freedom is dear." I am so happy that you are able to express your dissent ... err, speech so freely without reprimand, torture, threats or a bullet in your head.

Holy martyrs of the once liquidated Greek Catholic Church in Eastern Europe, pray for us!

Joe

Dear Friends,

Thomistic philosophy aside, we are now in a countdown to war.

May God have mercy on us all!

Alex

Quote:

"Dear Friends,

Thomistic philosophy aside, we are now in a countdown to war.

May God have mercy on us all!

Alex"

Amen! May He bring us all to peace.

Steve

Yes. Let us pray for the welfare of those troops who are deployed for military service - as we pray in our liturgies (assuming we are serious).

and the Welfare of the Civilians and as my priest prays at the Great Entrance "For those that love us and for those that hate us"

Yes.

Dear Brian and Cantor Joe,

May St George and St Michael the patrons of the military intercede for all soldiers.

May St Nicholas of Japan, the Russian missionary there who blessed the Japanese soldiers on their way to fight his countrymen during the Russo-Japanese War in true diplomatic fashion, intercede for us all.

May St Francis of Assisi help us all to be instruments of the Lord's Peace!

Alex