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#1965 07/15/05 12:29 PM
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Dear Incognitus,

I'm off to enjoy some of those indulgences you made mention of.

I apologise for my angry tone above.

Certainly, I don't think Shevchenko would ever be canonized a saint.

He does enjoy a tremendous civic cult among Ukies, as you know.

His statue now stands in the Kyivan Parliament where once that of Lenin stood.

That's a good thing, I would think!

Cheers,

Alex

#1966 07/15/05 02:00 PM
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a statue?
IS OUTRAGE!
a proper EC or Orthodox would set up an Icon, NOT a statue!
Much Love,
Jonn

#1967 07/15/05 02:57 PM
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My art teacher Dexter is casting a larger-than-life statue in bronze of Shevchenko for the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Syracuse (I think that's what he said). During one class, I had to sit to a wax casting of Shevchenko's head; pretty cool! smile

Dave

#1968 07/15/05 06:17 PM
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Hello

Quote
The UAOC-C claims to have an Ecuadorean Diocese, as well as several other Latin and South American jurisdictions...
Yes that's right. Thanks for showing the site of this Colombian Church. The story is quite strange indeed.

http://www.geocities.com//irsocolombia/historia.html

They received incardination by an "Old Calendarist" Bishop named Alexandros Cariaga, and due to Alexandros' strong tides with Patriarch Filaret of Ukraine * they were received by Metropolitan Michael** in the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church!.

* First of all, aren't Filaret and the Old Calendarists like oil and water? It seems like that to me.

** Metropolitan Michael's Sobornopravna Church has nothing to do with Patriarch Filaret at all.

It is good that Latin America has become a fertile soil for Orthodoxy but it seems that these non-Canonical Churches receive anyone as an Orthodox priest without the propper investigation (were they validly ordained? where did they come from? what studies did they do?). They don't even know to that Church they belong to.

#1969 07/15/05 08:29 PM
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Filaret does have a strong connection with one of the Greek Old Calendarist . . . ah . . . ecclesial communities.

Dear Alex,
Do enjoy the indulgences!

Incognitus

#1970 07/16/05 06:00 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by incognitus:
Filaret does have a strong connection with one of the Greek Old Calendarist . . . ah . . . ecclesial communities.
Which one? The KP was in communion with the Milan Synod but:

a) The Milanese bishops broke communion with the KP when Filaret was made patriach in 1997 and
b) The Milan Synod is hardly representative of an Old Calendarist Synod. Their origins lie with the Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians but they have drifted quite far away from these origins.

Anastasios

#1971 07/17/05 08:27 PM
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I said, oil and water. Patriarch Filaret seems to support all what the Old Calendarist Movement find repugnant, such as a politicaly based Ecumenism, phylestism-nationalism, etc.

By the way, hasn't the Milan Synod become too "eclectic" and inclusive by doing their own Ecumenism accepting people whose background is doubtful and who just wanted to be in communion with someone (people "ordained" by Old-Catholics, etc.) and engaging in liturgical speculation with "Western Rites".

These problems are now repeated by the groups now in communion with Filaret or any other Ukrainian jurisdiction such as these ones in Latin America. It seems that they accept anyone to the priesthood. This Colombian Bishop got his orders from a so-called "Independent Catholic Church" and I bet that most of his clergy have equaly dubious background and priestly formation.

The Roman Catholic Church itself does not recognize these sects (in America) to have valid orders. And can you imagine them being received in the Orthodox Church, without re-ordination?

It's very wrong.

#1972 07/18/05 12:47 AM
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Dear Mexican,

How so "phyletism-nationalism?"

Do you know what the heresy of phyletism is?

I don't think you do, friend.

The Ukrainians desire to have a Church that is "Ukrainian" and not "Russian."

If that makes them "phyletistic" then every Church of the East is guilty along the same lines.

But that is nonsense.

Every Eastern Church is a "national" Church as it embodies the national/local culture - as it should.

The Russian Church is very Russian. So is the Greek, irrespective of which calendar they follow.

The Old Calendarists I've met up here are quite nationalistic.

I wish we would stop with that propaganda!

Alex

#1973 07/25/05 08:18 AM
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This about the different Ukrainian jurisdictions is so complex.

There's a Bishop named Daniel de Jes�s (apparently ordained or consecrated by one of these "independent" Old-Cath Churches) who was primate of the "Inclusive Orthodox Church" (a vagant sect):

http://home.comcast.net/~pensil/deJesus.html

It seems that he's real Orthodox, but appears to be incardinated by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan (now Patriarch) Moysey:

http://www.soborna.org/news_eng/news_141_05.htm
http://netministries.org/see/churches.exe/ch12473

However, he also appears as Bishop of the UOC Kyivan Pariarchate in Mexico:

www.ortodoxiahispanica.com/es/documentos/sinodo_doh.doc [ortodoxiahispanica.com]

What's going on here?

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