www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Purple badge of courage: Iraqi elections

Dan & Alex,

Too bad I don't know how to cut & paste your messages so I could reply detail by detail. Well, anyway,

Dan, I also hope that the churches in Iraq will flourish. But it seems to me that if an enemy of Iraqi Christians wanted to obliterate their presence in that country, he would do just what America has done. There will be a backlash against Iraqi Christians.

The story of Christians in the Middle East is one of history's great tragedies. If only Christians could do something to restore & revitalize Lebanon & all the other areas that are loosing their Christian heritage. Well, I have to point a finger at America again & ask if the well-financed Protestant missionary machines haven't contributed to the decline of the churches in the Middle East. I think they have.

Alex, I have to disagree with you about the essential characters of Europe & the US. For me (born in the US & living now for 3 years in Europe) there is no spirituality in the US. People in Europe have this stereotype of Americans as a religious country, but I think for most Americans religion is very superficial. I'm talking about the "visible" religion of American - low church or fundamentalist Protestantism. Parts of Europe HAVE lost their faith & sense of spirituality. It's a similar problem as in the Middle East - once a nation turns its back on God, what can be done to return it to the faith?

The most intense expressions of religious faith I have ever observed are in Poland, Ukraine, and Romania. I have never experienced such intensity of faith in America.

Another point: Europeans are really reassessing America & American culture these days. Especially the young people. I teach at a university & increasingly my students, 22-24 years old, express disdain for America.

But not everyone of course. I was amazed to read in the newspaper this morning about the crowds of fans that assembled yesterday around the courtroom where Michael Jackson will be tried for improprieties with a minor. One girl interview was Polish. She came all the way from Poland to show her support for Jackson & then she made some dumb remark about how his fans love him.

Anyway, I acknowledge that America had contributed much to Europe over the centuries. But now that America isn't kept in check by a Soviet empire, Americans are not so careful about policing their country & its culture. And Americans are on the defensive now, they get their feelings hurt if a Frenchman objects to Big Macs. Many Americans feel superior to the rest of the world.

One great thing from America that I wish would take root in Eastern Europe - volunteerism. I argue to the students that the litter, which is terrible in some places, could be cleaned up by volunteer brigades, but that reminds them to much of the "volunteer" brigades that had to go & harvest potatoes every year. It sounds too much like communism for them.

It's frustrating for me to see, as I said, that many of the things that I dislike about Europe come from America, while the things I like about America aren't accepted in Europe. I'm an idealist, of course, always waiting for the birth of that new ideology that's going to bridge the best of the American & socialist systems.

Stojgniev

Alex,

I personally find it very immoral that the US has such wide inequalities of wealth in society. I find it immoral that there are so many homeless (often homeless people outside of those MCDonald's where people on chomping on Big Mac's!) Europe has to it's credit , does not have such a great problem of homelessness and social inequality. That is very positive in my mind and I am an American.
2 Catholic thinkers that have guided me in my life are Dorothy Day and Thomas Merton who both showed us that morality is a much wider subject and has to do with social justice as well.
I find in the areas of economic justice that America does lad way behind the European nations.

I like diversity over uniformity; diversity catalyzes creativity and growth. And uniformity is especially unwelcome when the music, clothing etc. is so vulgar.

Dear Brian,

Actually, the inequalities of the U.S. are nothing by comparison to the grinding poverty of Eastern Europe.

That poverty is enough to make one put on an orange scarf and . . . oops, I guess it's already been done!

North America ain't perfect.

But, being the spoiled brat that I am, I couldn't adapt to the situations elsewhere in the world without some serious stress.

God bless America!

Alex

Stojgniev,

The easiest way to copy and paste is:

Highlight the text you want
Press control and c at the same time
Go to where you want to paste placing your maker there
Press control and v at the same time
If for some reason it doesn't paste make sure that the address bar at the top of the page is not highlighted, that keeps it from pasting, just click in it to rid the highlighting, and then do the copy process again.

If you want to cut something
Highlight the text
Go to Edit at the top (I am sure there is a key but dont know which one)
Click on Cut
Then you can paste it or it will just delete after you copy or cut something else

Also if you look below the Add Reply incase you didn't notice them, you will find the gramelins and also the different forms to use. Just click on bold, for instance, and type it in the space and it comes out like this.

And if you want email notification of responding posts just go a little further down and check Email Notification.

Pani Rose

Dear djs,

Ah, but American cosmopolitanism IS so very diverse, even though there is the vulgarity in some aspects.

But today, most cities are looking alike, people tend to do similar things etc.

Is that America's fault? I don't think so.

And the Americanization of the world culture has been going on for some time.

It's unstoppable.

But why would you want to stop it? And deprive our intellectual elites of an ongoing topic on which they can produce books, articles and other critical commentaries?

That would hurt the university economy!

And before I forget,

God bless America!

Alex

Dear Stoygniev,

Actually, it is the young people of Europe who want American cosmopolitanism and are rejecting the old, unworkable socialist ideologies.

The religious fervour of Eastern Europe is there, yes, but it will eventually cool, unfortunately, with the coming of material comforts.

American religiosity (and I'm assuming you've been to the U.S.?) is NOT skin-deep, really.

The European constitution proposals are NOTED for its atheism and for ignoring the history of Christianity. What is that, Panie?

Americans believe with their hearts, they hold the Bible close to them and, when push comes to shove, they are all praying and expressing their faith in Christ!

That is the America that I have come to know.

God bless America!

Niech bedzie pochwalony Jezus Christus!

Alex

This is a beautiful thing. But this is not what we are exporting. The pressure against this diversity toward homgeneity is enormous here, and it is the homogenized cultre that we are exporting.

Dear Friends,

Just one more thing about America - the most successful export that America has is . . .DEMOCRACY!

I saw it at work in Ukraine. I see it at work in Iraq.

No matter what the culture or nation - American democracy is undoubtedly something that belongs to the world and is very relevant to the world.

Terrorists of all kinds are deathly afraid of the American ballot box.

They'll do everything to stop people making the "X" whether in Kyiv or Baghdad.

That ballot box is the legacy of freedom that IS America.

It is America's real victory over tyranny.

The American people are proud, patriotic, sensitive, good-natured and, yes, very spiritual.

May God bless and keep the American people and comfort them in their current sufferings, especially the cries of mothers and wives who have lost their children and spouses in the war in Iraq.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Alex

I guess these folks who envy Americas economic system like the inequalities of most of the rest of the world. I'd much rather live in a land with a vibrant middle class like ours than in most of the rest of the world that has 1% fabulously wealthy and 99% living at or near abject poverty. Clearly, Christianity must always seek to molify the distresses of poverty in our midst in America. But we have a much more manageable task on our hands than do countries that must develop a middle class from scratch.

When one analyzes the two basic economies of the world: The Caste System of India and the Caste System of the USA against the attempts to modify either one a person is drawn to the conclusion that the basic systems work far better than the attempts to modify them. Socialism is an attempt to modify the Western Caste System. It only succeeds in making the poor even poorer and the rich even richer. After seeing all sorts of attempts at modify a system that seems virtually genetic I'm forced to the conclusion that the system reflects reality.

What then does it mandate a Christian to do? Just what the Churches are doing in the US now.

Dan L

God bless you, Alex.

Despite my dismay with our high divorce rate, pornography, and gross homosexualist displays I'd say our Democratic principles are being exported and thank God they are. Given the choice of living in a country dominated by the Taliban, the Wahhabists, Sadam, or the government of Khartoum or any of the Islamic governments or even of the European governments I'll take the good old USA.

Dan Lauffer

Just out of curiousity Dan, into which of these two basic economic systems of the world would you put, for example, Britain, Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, France, Italy, Greece, Germany, etc. ?

The Caste System of the USA was a misnomer. I meant the Caste System of the West. Hence, the Caste System of virtually all Western nations is the same and it is very similar to the Hindu Caste system.

This isn't new with me. Do you wish a fuller explanation?

Dan L

Sure. After all, I hardly think that Brian was comparing the US to India rather than the similarly developed countries of Western Europe.

Ok.

This is something I've been teaching for a while to help my Comparative Religion Students understand the relationship between Religion and Economics.

The Caste System of India is comprised of three castes made up of people who have learned to one degree or another to find release from desire and ignorance. The three "twice born" castes are: Priests, Warriors, and Merchants. One caste which comprises most of the people are perceived to be in the servant caste. Their task is to serve the other castes without envy because envy is a form of desire and will by its nature keep the soul bound to the servant caste. In its basic form it describes the division of labor quite well. Religion tends to cut the edges off the harsh realities of poverty by incorporating the servants into the households of the other castes. In theory it seems to reflect reality. The spiritual reality of all of this is based upon the belief in an eternal soul or Atman which is in reality part of the Brahman or Universal Soul. There's more to it but that is the gist of it.

Both Buddhism and Ghandi made major efforts to soften the effects of this system each in their own way but the system itself survives.

The Western caste system is essentially the same but tends to avoid theological language and offers some movement in theory at least from one level to another. The Investor, Business Owner, and Self Employed all seem to be generators of the society. The Employees which are comparable to the Servants in India have the task of supporting the other castes. There is little risk in being an employee at least little in comparison to the other castes but there is commensurately less reward. Religion seeks to molify the harsh realities of the poor through education and bankruptsy options and like in India employees constitute the vast majority of the populace.

Socialism has been the major way people have tried to reform capitalism. When the medicine is used moderately it can do some good though in the long run probably as much or more harm than good. Hence you have Western Europe and to some degree North America. But if it is used to excess it destroys the very people it purports to help. It does not eliminate or even limit the upper castes who are necessary for societal function but it makes most everyone else an employee of the state and usually much poorer than before. Moreover, the excessive forms of Socialism as in Russia and the various "stans" of Asia wind up dependent and almost helpless.

The major difference between the two caste systems is that the major "reward" in the Hindu version is escape from this life. In the western form the major reward is money.

Not much new here, but it is important to understand.

Dan L