www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Amazing Grace

Dear Friends,

Do you like the hymn Amazing Grace?

Does it have a place in Eastern Church spirituality?

Paul

The lyrics:

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved.
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
and mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we've been there ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun,
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

John Newton 1725-1807 (stanza 6 Anon)

I think it might be deemed too reflective of an individualistic "Born Again" experience that would go against an Eastern Christian perspective which places much more emphasis on our being saved as a Church community and our good works.

There are SO many more lovely hymns especially from the Anglican tradition which would certainly be considered very Eastern in their theology.

Wasn't it a Protestant Anthem?

It's now very much used by Catholics I know, but I didn't know it had a place in Eastern christianity, I doubt that.
(even if this is a nice hymn, like the Ave Maria, it must not be included in the Eastern Liturgical celebration, I think)

I thought that we added verses to Oh Come, All Ye Faithful to make it suitable, but apparently they were always there, just never heard of lately:

Oh Come, all ye faithful,
Joyful and tirumphant.
Oh come ye, oh come ye to Bethlehem;
Come and behold Him,
Born the King of angels:

Refrain: Oh come, let us adore Him (3x), Christ the Lord!

**God of God,
Light of Light,
Lo, He abhors not the Virgin's womb;
Very God,
Begotten, not created:**

See how the shepherds,
Summoned to His cradle,
Leaving their flocks, draw igh to gaze;
We too will thither
Bend our joyful footsteps:

Lo, star-led chieftins,
Magi, Christ adoring,
Offer him incens, gold, and myrrh;
We to the Christ-child
Bring out hearts' oblations:

Yea, Lord, we grett Thee,
Born this happy morning,
Jesus, to Thee be glory giv'n,
Word of the Father,
Now in flesh appearing:

We sing this hymn to our liturgical tune, I never would have guessed it was an Anglican hymn:

Good Christian men and women, rejoice
With heart and soul and voice;
Give ye heed to what we say:
Jesus Christ was born today!

Ox and ass before Him bow,
And He is in the manger now:
Good Christian men, rejoice and say,
"Jesus Christ was born today!"

The Holy Son of God Most High,
For love of Adam's lapsed race,
Quit the sweet pleasures of the sky
To bring us to that happy place.

His robes of light He laid aside,
Which did His majesty adorn,
And the frail state of mortals tried,
In human flesh and figure born.

Whole choirs of angels loudly sing
The mystery of His sacred birth,
And the blest news to shepherds bring,
Filling thier watchful souls with mirth.

The Son of God thus man became,
That men the sons of God might be,
And by their second birth regain
A likeness to His deity.

We also have a Roman Catholic hymn in our hymnal, but it sounds so wierd when we suddenly switch to a western tune:

refrain: Sons of God, hear His holy word!
Gather 'round the table of the Lord;
Eat His Body, drink His Blood,
And we'll sing a song of love:
Allelu--(3x) Alleluia!

Brothers, sisters, we are one,
And our life has just begun;
In the spirit we are young:
We can live forever.

Shout together to the Lord,
Who has promised our reward:
Happiness a hundres fold,
And we'll live forever.
...

Other western songs in our hymnal: Hark! The Herald Angels Sing, Silent Night, God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen, What Child is this? Away in a Manger, We Three Kings, Oh Come, all ye faithful, Angels we have Heard on High (complete with refrain in Latin).

The idea is that including stuff like this makes the Church more approachable to westerners who have a hard time appreciating the Liturgy, and less strange to people raised here. I guess I'm weird because I personally like the eastern stuff better.

Dear Friends,

Well, there is nothing wrong with Amazing Grace and it does actually contain some very Eastern themes.

For example, the business about being blind, but through Grace now seeing - that is the thought behind the Jesus Prayer, asking God to pour the Oil of His Grace (i.e. the Holy Spirit) onto our sinful souls that, through Original Sin, have been darkened.

It seems to me to be a great hymn of praise in honour of the transfiguring and enlightening power of Grace.

However, it is associated with Protestantism - guilt by association is a very real thing for many people.

We sing the hymn in the Divine Liturgy "O Only-Begotten Son and Word . . ."

I wonder what our people in the pews would say if they knew the person who helped compose it was none other that St Severus of Antioch, who, on the Sunday of Orthodoxy, is referred to as the "Headless Severus" and who is condemned formally still for "Monophysitism" (although there are churches that have quietly dropped those condemnations).

Perhaps they might say, "Who? What?"

Alex

I'd like to apologise in advance to the folks who love this hymn, but I absolutely cannot stand it, and cringe -- CRINGE -- whenever I hear it. It was popular in my Catholic school, and sung at EVERY MASS the students attended. Some of the more religious folks in my family are fond of such hymns, and so when we gather to celebrate a birthday or a holiday and we all sit down to read the Scriptures and pray and thank God before celebrating, this is almost always sung, and I cannot stand it. I don't like the lyrics, I don't like the music, and yet this song never leaves me alone, it is always around me. Talk about penance!!

Dear Catholicos,

Then stop fighting it and accept it for what it is for you - a penance from God!

Alex

Being a western movie buff I found Amazing Grace to grow on you,usally sung at all those good guy burials. Naw, don't mind it abit.

James

Give me some good Russian Obikhod Chant ANYTIME!!!!

Is this not the false/heretical teaching of total depravity?

If it's possible to "hate" a song, well then yes, I hate that darn song.

[I can't stand it either - if it is sung in Church here I open my mouth and nothing comes forth - it has that effect on me - a truly ghastly hymn As far as I am concerned the sooner it is out of favour the better.

Sorry about the rant - I feel better now

Man, am I glad I've got company:

If it's possible to "hate" a song, well then yes, I hate that darn song.

a truly ghastly hymn

That about says it all!

A little bit of musical trivia here that will help you appreciate the song.

...You can sing the 'Gilligan's Island' song lyrics to the Amazing Grace melody

and vice versa of course

So the next time you hear 'Amazing Grace' take some time out to "Sit right back and you'll hear a tale.."

-Brendan

Ha! I just tried that, that's hilarious! I guess I know now what I'll do if I ever have to sing it again...

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
This hymn is a truely American song. For those that do not know the history of this song, it is one of the most powerful examples of God's Grace.
Below is an NPR (National Public Radio) write up on the history. (http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_894060.html)

**************************************************
Dec. 29, 2002 -- While "Amazing Grace" is among America's most well-known and oft-recorded pieces of music, the song's history is as remarkable as its popularity. Steve Turner's book Amazing Grace: The Story of America's Most Beloved Song tells the story of composer John Newton's conversion from slave trader to abolitionist, and traces the evolution of the song from its composition in 1772 as a hymn with no set tune to the version familiar today.

"Amazing Grace" was first heard on New Year's Day in 1773. Turner tells NPR's Liane Hansen it was written without "ceremony" in an attic room where Newton wrote weekly hymns to amplify the message of his sermons. When Newton put the internal rhyme "amazing grace" together, it wasn't purely for poetic reasons. He understood grace to mean God's unmerited favor to lost souls. Turner says it was a meaning Newton -- with his sordid history and personal tale of redemption -- could take to heart.

Newton supplied the lyrics, but the tune sung today arrived much later. Turner says that in Newton's day, the song would have been sung "to another song that fit its meter" -- if it were sung at all. And "Amazing Grace" continued to be associated with a number of different tunes throughout much of the 19th century. In 1835, "...the tune that we now sing... was married to the words of John Newton," Turner says. That same year a South Carolina singing instructor named William Walker published a widely popular hymn book combining the now-familiar tune with Newton's words.

Turner attributes the early popularity of "Amazing Grace" in America to the religious revivalism of that period and to the power of the first verse.] In America, Newton says, "the conversion experience is more prominent and more important, and this is the absolute perfect song to accompany a conversion of that sort� 'I once was lost but now I�m found. I was blind but now I see�' It seems to be the definitive song of the personal conversion experience."

Turner also notes that the song makes an appearance in Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel Uncle Tom's Cabin, which came to be embraced by abolitionist forces as an indictment of plantation life and slavery. The collective trauma of the Civil War helped to solidify the song's popularity.

"Amazing Grace" has been featured on more than 1,100 albums. The song reached the pop charts in the United Kingdom and the United States when Judy Collins released her version in 1971. It was another time of turbulence as U.S. military forces were mired in an unpopular war in Vietnam. In her forward to Turner�s book, Judy Collins says the song has the "power to transform" and to heal.

Many of the musicians Turner has talked to offer similar testimony to the sweet sound of a hymn that has become an heirloom.

"Something magical happens when they sing it," Turner says.
**************************************************

Slavery is America's "Original Sin", and this song is about not only the redemption of a person, but of us as a people. When I hear this song, I cry. If God can turn a man's heart from slaver to abolitionist, imagine what that Grace can do for us!

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

You can also sing "Izhe Cheruvimy" to the melody of "Amazing Grace." Comes in handy for all those Southern Baptist-Orthodox/Byzantine Catholic crossover services.

"Izhe Cheruvimy" also works with the melody of "What a friend I have in Jesus" and "Nearer my God to thee" and a slew of other Protestant hymns.

Who knew?

-Dave

Dear Chtec Dave:

Bravo! Made me laugh out loud.

Yours,

kl

Thanks, Dave,

For your affirmative answer to the original question raised by Paromer: "Does it fit in with Eastern Church spirituality?" :p

Of course it does!!! All true spirituality is ours, supplied to us by the Holy Spirit.

Others are wandering in partial or complete darkness, and they need us --- to bring them the "Amazing Grace" we have received from the Lord.

Although our worship is the collective of the Church gathered together, each of us will be guided on our own spiritual path and will have to account for our own self at the final Judgement.


originally posted by Chtec:

Quote

You can also sing "Izhe Cheruvimy" to the melody of "Amazing Grace." Comes in handy for all those Southern Baptist-Orthodox/Byzantine Catholic crossover services.

"Izhe Cheruvimy" also works with the melody of "What a friend I have in Jesus" and "Nearer my God to thee" and a slew of other Protestant hymns.

Who knew?

-Dave

I also happen to like singing "Amazing Grace". After all, it is amazing, that the Lord would grant any Grace to an unworthy sinner like myself.


John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Just a note: in the Anglican Hymnal the original lyrics were "Good Christian men, Rejoice". This was "fixed" to "Good Christian friends, rejoice."
*wince*

Having "men and women" doesn't scan or fit the tune.

Hilde

The Metrical Index in the Episcopal Hymnal can be used for great entertainment in fitting melodies and words of the same meter together. The tune "Old Hundredth" fits "Jabberwocky" and it's words fit "Hernando's Hideaway" (including the "amen").

Similarly, The Marine's Hymn, "Clementine" and "The Ode to Joy" are interchangeable.

Strange things happen at choir practice sometimes.


Hilde

To teach us about poetic meter my 9th grade English teacher had us sing the opening stanzas of the Rime of the Ancient Mariner to various Christmas Carols - like Joy to the World, and O Little Town of Bethlehem. It was wacky - and the first several stanzas are still locked in my head.

The wonderful woman who really got me started singing once sang to me the Communion Anthem, Chvalite Hospodi to the tune of Nearer My God to Thee. Our priest vehemently vetoed the idea of singing that in our church.

Dear Friends,

As a Jewish friend once quipped, the new Israeli national anthem these days appears to be:

Onward Christian Soldiers!

Alex

Do y'all think we can send the Salvation Army to the Holy Land to conquer some souls?

The folks over there need the peace and justice that only God can provide.