www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The Fall Of Orthodoxy

Dear Anhelyna,

There used to be a rule in place, I think it was dropped in the early 20th century but don't know for sure, that forbade Latin Catholics from attending Communion in any Greek Catholic Church.

Greek Catholics could go to Communion in a Latin Church, but not the other way around.

I have an old "Trebnyk" from the late 19th century, published in Lviv in Ukraine that spells this out in an appendix in the back.

Alex

Dear Yuhannon,

Yes, you put it brilliantly and I agree that our current Pope has made great ecumenical strides in this area!

Alex

Oh I really have shown my lack of knowledge of history haven't I ?



Ah well I never did pretend to be all-knowing - as my posts here certainly show.

Anhelyna

Dear Anhelyna,

Please don't run yourself down - this is just a "way-out" kind of point.

Although I can hear Orthoman reading about this and saying out loud, "See, see, what did I tell you Uniates! You just won't listen to me. Nobody wants to listen to me. . .!"

Isn't he just loveable?

Alex

Alex (my friend) writes:

[Although I can hear Orthoman reading about this and saying out loud, "See, see, what did I tell you Uniates! You just won't listen to me. Nobody wants to listen to me. . .!" ]

Alex, I'm much more interested in the thread concerning the title 'Greek Catholic' which, you may have noticed I'm staying out of on purpose.

That's the one where I shake my head and say..."After 400+ years they are still trying to figure out what, why, and who they are." Thanks to the Unia which brought nothing but hatred, discord, confusion, broken families, and subjugation to our people. Yet they still defend it, obviously not understanding exactly what it is or otherwise they wouldn't be having an identitiy problem after all these centuries!

And, judging from the private emails I recive concerning my posts here, more than one person listens to what I have to say big guy!

OrthoMan

P.S. I loved your recent post concerning Papal Primacy and agree with it.

"I came not to bring peace, but a sword . . . a household of five will be divided two against three and three against two . . . on account of Me."

Dear LatinTrad,

Actually, what Orthoman says of the legacy of the Unia is EXACTLY what the New Catholic Encyclopaedia affirms under the "Union of Brest-Litovske" as well.

Have a look, if you don't believe me, Big Guy.

Alex

Slava Isusu Christu!

Alex,

But that's the New Catholic Encyclopedia, which is no doubt fraught with modernist interpretations.

That's what I was told by someone at the local Tridentine Mass not too long ago, anyways...

In Christ,
mikey.

PS I'd like to make it clear that I'm not implying that LT would make such a comment.

Dear Orthoman,

Yes, Metropolitan Ohienko wrote at length on the title "Greek Catholic" as you've indicated and had a few things to say about it.

He actually preferred that the Uniates keep their original title "Orthodox in communion with Rome" or else "Greco-Uniates."

He felt the title "Greek-Catholic" was introduced as a way to dull, even more, the Eastern spiritual sensibilities of the Uniates and help lead them into the Latin Church at a more accelerated rate.

And, as you've also correctly said, he affirmed that that term helped to harm the Eastern Catholics' Byzantine or "Orthodox" identity (sic) and "they (the Uniates) forgot that, in their essence, they were Orthodox . . ."

He saw in the "Old Union with Rome" (not "Greek-Catholic") a Church and a people that were culturally Orthodox and had continuing deep ties to their ancestral Church.

And he often praised a number of these for their loyalty to their traditions.

Even the Count Nicholas Pototsky, who went from the Latin Church to the Uniate Church, was praised highly for his life-long contributions to the development of the Pochaiv Lavra, as you know.

He is also praised in the Orthodox Akathist to the Mother of God of Pochaiv - although not by personal name.

Pototsky scrupulously observed "liturgical Orthodoxy" and was very well disposed to Orthodox Christians, even though he was in communion with Rome.

He gave a large parcel of land to the Orthodox Skete of Manjava - known for its strong opposition to Rome.

But you are right in your assessment of the historical significance of this title and the role of spiritual identity.

Alex

Dear Mikey,

But the view expressed there on the Unia of Brest-Litovske is the standard view of RC ecumenical theologians engaged in discussions with the Orthodox.

Who, today, in the Latin Church agrees that the Unia was a positive thing in inter-ecclesial relations?

LatinTrad doesn't count . . .

Alex

That, Alex, is very interesting. I don't have ready access to the NCE, but I am willing to bet that it does not affirm "EXACTLY" what Orthoman says. In particular, the "nothing but" is something that cannot be affirmed honestly by anyone - especially someone like you with such a vaunted lineage.

Slava Isusu Christu!

Alex,

How many people in the Latin Church really know what the Unia is to begin with?

In Christ,
mikey.

Dear Mikey,

I meet people every week who think that "Ukrainian Catholic" is a Ukrainian version of "Novus Ordo"

Alex

Unfortunately I only get like 60-second snippets these days in which to post.

FYI there are Ukies on this forum who have pointed out the positive aspects of the Unia and who often quote from the Fathers of the Union of Brest.

Theologically, the Unia makes no sense if union with the see of Rome is seen as something dispensible.

Cardinals Kasper and Cassidy notwithstanding, the successor of St. Peter was traditionally understood as the earthly "source and sign" of the Church's unity. Thus, from the point of view of those Latins who were involved with Brest-Litovsk, their task was to bring the "schismatic" Church back into the Mystical Body of Christ.

Without understanding that, it is impossible to make heads or tails of the Unia.

Of course the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy was ticked as hell. No one was so naive as to expect otherwise.


LatinTrad

Or, preferably, ...what the Unia are...