www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Storm over Italy crucifix ruling - Pray Europe wakes up

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
I agree a 100% with you Halychanyn. If we want Christians to be able to practice there faith in Islamic lands freely, as well as in Israel, then we need to respect their co-religious that reside in our lands when it comes to public education.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Therein lies the danger when one brings the compulsion of the state into religious matters. There are too many examples in human history where the alliance of a religion and a state has brought great oppression- Salem, The Elizabethen "National" CHurch towards Catholics and Non-Conformists, The Inquisition in Spain, the expulsion of Roger Williams from Massachusetts, the continuiing theocracy in Iran, the persecution of the Old Believers etc etc etc

I am VERY glad we have religious freedom in the US and methinks a little more reading of John Courtney Murray SJ would be welcome (but maybe he was a Modernist as well? :p

Now Europe's first religion is unbelief. In the New Order, there's no religion but the worship of man, the religion when man becomes God. Its phylosophy is completely individualistic. There's no family, no values, no repentance for nothing, no stability. Homosexuality, abortion, a false sense of human rights, a false concept of ecology, are the characteristics of the New Order.

It's certainly true that public schools should be as secular as possible but not atheist. I am sure that if there had been a statue of Buddha, or Hinduist idols instead of a crucifix, those Pagan idols would still be there. The war is directed specialy against Christianity, because Christianity gave identity to the nations, Once Christianity is removed, there's no reason for Belgium to defend its separated identity from Protestant nations, for example. The borders become useless, after all, all it's the same. Newcomers with their new religions gradualy take the place of Christianity, specialy Islam and Hinduism.

Mexican

You're quite right, only it's the New World Order (you left out World).

My contribution on this topic is to remind folks of how dangerously far we have come from the previously undisputed acceptance that Judaeo-Christian principles guide our (any traditionally Christian country) state and its laws.

If we look at the US Constitution, we see that in order to PRESERVE a free exercise of religion, the constitution bans the establishment of a state-sponsored Church. Notice that it doesn't ban state-sponsored endorsement of RELIGION.

The founders sought to prevent the establishment of the Episcopalian (or any other denomination) as the official Church of the USA. They in no way sought to prevent Judaeo-Christian principles from guiding our laws and being visibly present in our public buildings.

I feel bad for the Italians. I lived among them for a couple of years. The simple piety of the majority of them was a great strength to me, a young man far from home and all alone.

I feel bad for my own USA also, which will be recorded in history as the country that taught the world all of this stupidity.

In Christ,
Andrew

When I read the original post, all I thought of was the woman that was fired from her job for wearing a crucifix to work here in America. She sued and got it back, but to me this is just one more step in trying to remove God from the eyes of man. So many people don't try and just let the system run over them.

Think about the article. Think about Constantinople and the Hagi Sophea. Muslims and the Eastern Christians, what was left to display our faith in that time. The images of our faith were destroyed. This peace that they had in that century was a sword across your throat.

Mousalini(sp) the Italian dictator removed God from the eyes of the people. Look at the EU constitution, they desire not to recognize God. So you don't see a pattern forming there?

I watched a program once where people took all of their icons, someplace in Russia, and trew them on a bonfire. Where is Europe headed?

I am concerned!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rose:

"I watched a program once where people took all of their icons, someplace in Russia, and trew them on a bonfire. Where is Europe headed?"


Do you really think that's where we're headed if we don't discriminate against non-Christians?

Christian

Dear Friends,

Certainly, there are public schools - and then there are public schools.

It would depend if that school in Italy already had a tradition of allowing Crucifixes.

If it did, for years, and then they had to be taken down - that really is a problem.

At the legislature where I (still) work, a group of representatives of various churches and religions came in to discuss how to remove the Lord's Prayer from the opening exercises here.

Among them was a representative of the RC Archdiocese of Toronto who was sent to also help remove the Lord's Prayer . . .

And yet, in 1990, when there was an attempt made to substitute the Lord's Prayer here with a moment of silence, a Muslim parliamentarian got up and said that if not having the "Our Father" meant that there would be no prayers at all, he would rather have the "Our Father" recited daily.

And, he said, he didn't need any Christian parliamentarians there telling him how he should think and act as a Muslim.

I prefer that Muslim Canadian parliamentarian over our Archdiocese.

Alex

Do you really think that's where we're headed if we don't discriminate against non-Christians?
discrimination from Websters 1913 dictionary:
1. [adj] marked by the ability to see or make fine distinctions; "discriminate judgments"; "discriminate people"
# [v] recognize or perceive the difference

Definition:

\Dis*crim"i*nate\, a. [L. discriminatus, p. p. of
discriminare to divide, separate, fr. discrimen division, distinction, decision, fr. discernere. See {Discern}, and cf.{Criminate}.]
Having the difference marked; distinguished by certain tokens. --Bacon.

#
\Dis*cern"\, v. i.
1. To see or understand the difference; to make distinction; as, to discern between good and evil, truth and falsehood.

As you can see the root of discrimination is to descern. I can decern that the more Christ is removed from the sight of man, the more the evil of this world will spread it falacies.

In Romans 1:12 Paul states we are encouraged by one another's faith. In chapter 12:10&16 we are told to "give preference to one another in honor" and to "be of the same mind toward one another". In 14:19 we are told to "pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another." "Accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God" is the admonition of 15:7. A few verses later Paul writes that he is convinced that they were "able to admonish one another" (14).

In Galatians 5:15 Paul writes, "But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another." When we practice the "one anothers" we are functioning as the family God intended and the body God intended. We are called "brothers" in Christ for a reason. Galatians 6:2 states that we are to bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. The law of Christ is to love one another!

In the context of Galatians 6 it's the loving, humble counsel of a brother who is overtaken in a fault because you want to see him restored. The word "restore" is used of the disciples mending their nets. This implies time and effort. This is not just "the hired holy man's" job or the elder's responsibility. It's too much for them to carry alone! Every believer should be involved in this type of personal ministry. Could it be that our churches are weak spiritually because the whole body is not practicing this "one another"?

We are called to live out the mission of the Church, "Go ye therefore into all the nations, theaching them whatsoever I have commanded you, Baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit".

Yep, I think taking down the Crucifix is wrong and leads us in the wrong direction away from Christ.

Dear Rose,

I think you are right to maintain your position and I would agree with you.

Again, Italy and Europe is not North America and their idea of a public school is not ours.

For example, some years back, I belonged to a group that worked on catechetical texts for Russian and Ukrainian "public schools" discussing Orthodox doctrine - I was responsible for the lives of Orthodox saints.

Some public school, eh?

Alex

Rose,

Mussolini signed the Concordat with the Vatican which recognized Catholicism as the State Religion of Italy and allowed religious instruction in the public schools in Italy!!!

Dear Brian,

Yes, he did.

And it was because of the sociological fact of Catholicism in Italy that Pope Pius XII did not mince words with Mussolini who wanted to follow Hitler's policy against the Jews.

The Pope immediately responded to Mussolini's first anti-semitic speech by saying, "The Catholic Church in Italy will not tolerate any form of Anti-Semitism whatsoever!"

And that was that - see "The Last Three Popes and the Jews."

Again, Europe is not North America in this respect.

You've really no idea what you are talking about.

Alex

Alex,

Thanks Alex!

Do you think since we are all Christian nations, though many deny it, it is up to the Church to speak the truth. Just as the Vatican has done against this law.

We are not an enity unto ourselves, especially now adays, when we are becoming more and more a global economy. I clarified my post a little. It is hard since in America we seem to be setting the standard for so many countries when we ourselves are doing what Italy is starting to do. We have a responcibility to try to change the tide of this nation and not to allow the same tidal wave, no matter how small our efforts seem, to roll over another nation.

(this really doesn't relate, but...look at what the Vatican does for Italys economy.) Wow! That in itself should tell them something.

Dear Rose,

Actually, I prefer you over Brian any day (I hope Brian isn't too put off by me).

But you are right. I understand you have an organization in the U.S. that has succeeded in removing crosses from every single municipal coat of arms, except for two . . .

As for the economic question, Saints, as we now, have been responsible for entire local economies springing up.

This is why European countries in medieval times spent loads of money to promote the canonization of their saints.

When a saint was canonized, all sorts of businesses sprung up, including the hotel business that was started by monasteries.

To this day, near St Paul's Cathedral in London, U.K., there is "Paternoster Row" and the old home of the guild of the Paternosterers who made rosaries of all kinds and sold them to people as they left church.

An Italian cleric in the 14th century once wrote: "All the English attend Mass daily and then pray Our Fathers' on long strands of beads."

Am I good or what?

Alex

Actually it was Pius XI who took a much stronger stand against fascism and God bless him, spoke up for the Basque priests who were being murdered by Franco's forces in the Spanish Civil War although I agree that PIus XII is not the caricature secular critics make of him!