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Joined: Nov 2001
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尼古拉前执事 Member
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Originally posted by lost&found: there not be a place for:
Byzageeks ?
Michael I think the comonly used terms are: Geek Catholic and Geek Orthodox :-D
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尼古拉前执事 Member
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Dear Alex, Thank you again. I am doing as well. I have been bored at work this week so I decided to stop in and see what was going on in the ByzCath circles and found a place to post. Do you know why the Latins came up with the term The Reverend Mister Lastname for addressing their deacons in formal letters while the Orthodox used The Reverend Father Deacon Firstname? In Christ, Deacon Nikolai http://EuphrosynosCafe.com
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Alex dont forget "of the true faith" Stephanos I
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"Do you know why the Latins came up with the term The Reverend Mister Lastname for addressing their deacons in formal letters while the Orthodox used The Reverend Father Deacon Firstname?"
Reverend Mister was at one time standard address for diocesan clergy in the English speaking world. Father was reserved for clergy in religious orders. At some point Father came to be used for all priests, but Reverend Mister continued in use for transitional deacons, the only deacons the Latin Church had until after Vatican II. With restoration of the diaconate in the Latin Church, Reverend Mister, which was used for transitional deacons, got applied to permanent deacons as well.
Unfortunately, some Eastern Catholic Churches in the US adopted this style as well, but I think now most use Father Deacon or Deacon.
Fr. Deacon Lance
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Fr Deacon Lance is correct. Evidently we spotted the same question at the same time and answered simultaneously. However, since I like your reply better than mine I'll edit mine away and simply *nod* at what you've said.
I wonder if "Fr Deacon" will return to usage throughout the Roman Church?
"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
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Dear Fr. Deacon Nikolai, Actually, Fr. Deacon Lance and Myles have made an incomplete answer to your query! "Mister" is actually the old title for addressing clergy referring to a position of authority, much like "Vladyka" or "Despota" is in connection with Bishops. So "Master John Schorne" would be, today, "Fr. John Schorne" (who is a local saint venerated in St George' Chapel in Myles' country and the old patron against the gout). In the same way, "clerical" or "clerk" means "priestly" and "priest." Aristocratic families hired priests for services in their castles (where chapels were to be had) and also for writing out legal documents which had to be done in Latin - and priests were trained in Latin, of course. So "clerical work" today means filing, paper-work as a result. Also, the neck-tie men wear comes from the old collar priests wore (related to the Crusader's white bandage cloth they wrapped around their necks). I give guided tours around the Legislature, you know! Alex
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Dear Fr. Stephanos, Which one? Alex
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Originally posted by Deacon Lance: "Do you know why the Latins came up with the term The Reverend Mister Lastname for addressing their deacons in formal letters while the Orthodox used The Reverend Father Deacon Firstname?"
Note that "Father Deacon" is a Russian construction; in Greece, deacons are addressed simply as "Father" and all clergy are addressed as "Father" or "Master". Note also that "Reverend" is peculiar to English. In Greek, when addressing a cleric in writing, the name is prefixed with the same word used for a layman, which can be translated as "Mister", although it is, in ecclesiastical usage, always "Lord": "To Kyrio" (dative case); bishops and archimandrites are addresses as "To Kyrio ton Kyrion", "The Lord of Lords". In either case, the clerical title is placed after the name, e.g., "Mister Father Nicholai, Deacon". Also, when commemorated in church, the title is after the name, so while in a Russian Church, I am "[the] Reader Photius", in a Greek Church, I am "Photius, Reader". The last name custom of the Latins is something that I note Byzantine Catholics still often use. It grates on me to see bishops, especially, refereed to by last name, because this is, to my sensibilities, an insult, much as a Catholic would perceive "Pope Ratzinger". ... transitional deacons, the only deacons the Latin Church had until after Vatican II. With restoration of the diaconate in the Latin Church,
Is this really true? I know that at the time of Vatican I, there was a cardinal who was a deacon. I've been told that there were permanent deacons in some religious orders and sometimes attached to cathedrals, the latter purportedly being those who finished seminary, were content with being celibate, but did not want to be priests, and worked in chancery offices. Photius, Reader
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Originally posted by Photius: Note that "Father Deacon" is a Russian construction; in Greece, deacons are addressed simply as "Father" and all clergy are addressed as "Father" or "Master". Very true Photius, although Father Deacon is a formal title and generally the way a deacon is addressed is Father Firstname as the Greeks do. For a Russian deacon, it can be a shocking to visit a traditional Greek church and have his hand kissed as well. I understand the Greeks do this since the deacon receives communion in his hand as doesa a priest or bishop and do not do it as asking for a blessing. Thank you all for the explanations! In Christ, Deacon Nikolai http://EuphrosynosCafe.com
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic: Dear Friends,
I guess there are all kinds of problems involving translation once Slavonic and the Slavic languages are abandoned in our Churches!
And who was it that mentioned assimilation?
"Ruthenian Catholic"
"Byzantine Catholic"
"Buzzin' Teen Catholic"
"Orthodox in communion with Rome"
and then,
"all you Orthodox Christians!"
Alex (Is Outrage) How about "Orthodox Catholic" ? Joe
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Dear Joe, I like to think that I'm not assimilated just yet . . . Alex
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Dear Photius, For the sake of completeness, one might add that when Greeks who are not native speakers of English are speaking English, something strange often happens with references to the hierarchy - the first time I heard a devout Greek Orthodox layman refer to his bishop as "Mr. Firstname" I nearly passed out from shock. It took me a while (since I don't speak modern Greek) to realize how this had happened. By that time the devout layman was elsewhere so I had no opportunity to bring this to his attention.
Incognitus
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Originally posted by incognitus: Dear Photius, For the sake of completeness, one might add that when Greeks who are not native speakers of English are speaking English, something strange often happens with references to the hierarchy - the first time I heard a devout Greek Orthodox layman refer to his bishop as "Mr. Firstname" I nearly passed out from shock. It took me a while (since I don't speak modern Greek) to realize how this had happened. By that time the devout layman was elsewhere so I had no opportunity to bring this to his attention.
Incognitus Dear Incognitus, This is an example of what we call "Byzantine English", which is something akin to translating Greek into English much as Saint Cyril translated Greek into Slavonic. In the 1960s, the relics of three new martyrs were miraculously revealed on the Island of Lesbos. They were canonized and a service written, and their feast is celebrated on Bright Friday. The women to whom the saints revealed themselves decided to translate their lives and service into English themselves, having only studied English in school and having never been to an English speaking country. After publication, the book was quickly withdrawn and is now a collectors' item. Two examples of their Byzantine English that I can still remember: The Irmos "Having traversed the sea as dry land" was rendered as "Water passed as dryness" and the memorable sticheron that begins, "O Nicholas, the joy of Lesbians". A map of Mount Athos with text on the back translates "bishops' staffs" as "episcopal sticks" and another, less clearly understood oddity is "manuscripts made by silk worms". Photius, Reader
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Dear Photius,
Forgive me, but I haven't laughed so nicely in an extended time!
The Joy of Lesbians? At last a miracle mainstream North Americans can relate to!
A good weekend to you . . .
Alex
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When Vespers for the Saints of North America come around, I cannot help but chuckle at the beginning of one of the sticheras "Rejoice, O Mountains of Pennsylvania!!" ) Truly, it is the Holy Land!!!
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