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#198853 06/04/05 12:45 PM
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Can any of my Ukrainian brethren (or anyone else, for that matter) tell me the abbreviation that the Studites append to their name to designate their order?

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
#198854 06/04/05 12:56 PM
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Maybe it's "STUD."?

Sorry, sorry. wink

Dave, not a Ukrainian

#198855 06/04/05 01:27 PM
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MSU - Ukrainian abbreviation for Monk of the Studite Order

#198856 06/04/05 01:37 PM
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Pavloosh,

Thanks very much.

Dave,

Thank you too :rolleyes: - back to iconography now for you biggrin

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
#198857 06/04/05 01:43 PM
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You are welcome Neil!
By the way, I enjoy reading your posts.
Pavloosh

#198858 06/04/05 02:56 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Pavloosh:
MSU - Ukrainian abbreviation for Monk of the Studite Order
мсу - монах студійського уставу
msu - monakh studiis'koho ustavu
trans: monk of the studite ustav/typicon

OTOH, I've just checked four books in my collection which were written by 'studites'. All give their 'rank' (hieromonk or schemamonk) but only one has something after his name, and that is "студ. мон.", which I assume is short for студійський монах, or 'studite monk'.

It appears that they don't usually put anything after their names. Probably following the Eastern tradition that a monk is a monk is a monk. The idea of 'Orders' and such is more of a Western concept.

Let us pray for the continued growth and development of monasteries following in the steps of St Theodore of the Studion.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

#198859 06/04/05 03:01 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by KO63AP:
only one has something after his name, and that is "студ. мон.",
Wow, I wasn't that far off! biggrin

Yes, Neil, back to iconography for me. I'm working on a relic box right now...

Dave

#198860 06/04/05 03:35 PM
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Kobzar,

Thanks for the info, but don't encourage his irreverance. Now, he'll be even more insufferable biggrin .

Quote
Originally posted by Chtec:
Maybe it's "STUD."?
Quote
Originally posted by Chtec:
Wow, I wasn't that far off!
Dave,

Actually, I saw "Stud." written once, somewhere that now escapes me, and couldn't imagine that it was correct eek - that was part of what prompted my question wink .

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
#198861 06/04/05 04:07 PM
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Even the Vatican employs the style "MSU", but it really isn't correct. The more excellent way is simply "Monk John, XYZ monastery".

Incognitus

#198862 06/09/05 08:42 AM
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Dear Friends,

The Monks of the Studite Typikon that I grew up with here put the Slavonic letter, "YC" after their names that stands for "Ustav Studiysky."

They preface their names with their monastic title, "Hieromonk" "Hierodeacon" etc. and then the above two letters.

The Ukrainian Studites have really been in the forefront in promoting Eastern Christian consciousness among the UGCCers!

I have received a Ukrainian translation of Hohol's (Gogol's) work on the Divine Liturgy illustrated with pictures of a UGCC Divine Liturgy! Magnificent!

They have books on the Jesus Prayer and the Philokalia in Ukrainian, beautiful modern translation of a liturgical psalter (bohosluzhebney psalter) and much else!

Their icon of the Mother of God of Univ is miraculous.

Now that we're on the topic, what is the proper way for an Orthodox/EC priest to style himself?

Our reposed Fr. Yuri Fedoriv would write, "Dr. Yuri Fedoriv, Priest."

Alex

#198863 06/09/05 09:24 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Now that we're on the topic, what is the proper way for an Orthodox/EC priest to style himself?

Alex
Dear Alex,

The traditional way of a priest to sign himself would be something like the following examples. Traditionally a priest would never call himself Father, just like a bishop would never call himself Vladyka or Despota, since these are honorifics.

Here are some examples of how clergy would sign and address themselves, even if we would call them all Father Firstname.

Stavrophore* Monk Joseph
Schemamonk Alexei
Deacon Nikolai
Hierodeacon Euphrosynos
Protodeacon Nikifor
Archdeacon Seraphim
Priest Christopher
Hieromonk Sergei
Protopriest Dionysi
Igumen Andrei
Protopresbyter Vladimir
Archimandrite Ephraem

Of course the only times we would use these terms for these clergy would be in addressing a formal letter. For Deacons and Priests a letter would be addressed to "The Reverend Father, Priest Firstname" for Protopriests and higher (plus proto- and archdeacons) the would be addressed as "The Very Reverend Father, Title Firstname". Father can actually be eliminated in those 2 examples, but is sometimes included.

*In some traditions, rank of a monk would not be listed.

I hope that helps answer your question!

#198864 06/09/05 09:47 AM
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Dear Deacon Nikolai,

It is ALWAYS a pleasure and a privilege to converse with you here, Friend!

How have you been?

Congratulations, once again, on your ordination to Christ's Diaconate!

Thank you for your informative post which is most comprehensive!

Holy Royal Martyrs of Russia, Sts Nicholas, Alexandra, Alexius, Tatiana, Maria, Olga and Anastasia, pray unto God for us!

Alex

#198865 06/09/05 12:10 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Chtec:
Maybe it's "STUD."?

Sorry, sorry. wink

Dave, not a Ukrainian
Studs in Black?

#198866 06/09/05 12:32 PM
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Dear Friends,

I guess there are all kinds of problems involving translation once Slavonic and the Slavic languages are abandoned in our Churches! wink

And who was it that mentioned assimilation?

"Ruthenian Catholic"

"Byzantine Catholic"

"Buzzin' Teen Catholic"

"Orthodox in communion with Rome"

and then,

"all you Orthodox Christians!" wink

Alex (Is Outrage)

#198867 06/09/05 12:55 PM
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Greetings to all.

Alex, great points on assimilation. Since everyone here is proficient with computers and the internet, would there not be a place for:

Byzageeks ?

Michael

#198868 06/09/05 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by lost&found:
there not be a place for:

Byzageeks ?

Michael
I think the comonly used terms are:

Geek Catholic
and
Geek Orthodox :-D

#198869 06/09/05 01:24 PM
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Dear Alex,

Thank you again. I am doing as well. I have been bored at work this week so I decided to stop in and see what was going on in the ByzCath circles and found a place to post.

Do you know why the Latins came up with the term The Reverend Mister Lastname for addressing their deacons in formal letters while the Orthodox used The Reverend Father Deacon Firstname?

In Christ,
Deacon Nikolai
http://EuphrosynosCafe.com

#198870 06/09/05 01:53 PM
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Alex dont forget "of the true faith"
Stephanos I

#198871 06/09/05 02:12 PM
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"Do you know why the Latins came up with the term The Reverend Mister Lastname for addressing their deacons in formal letters while the Orthodox used The Reverend Father Deacon Firstname?"

Reverend Mister was at one time standard address for diocesan clergy in the English speaking world. Father was reserved for clergy in religious orders. At some point Father came to be used for all priests, but Reverend Mister continued in use for transitional deacons, the only deacons the Latin Church had until after Vatican II. With restoration of the diaconate in the Latin Church, Reverend Mister, which was used for transitional deacons, got applied to permanent deacons as well.

Unfortunately, some Eastern Catholic Churches in the US adopted this style as well, but I think now most use Father Deacon or Deacon.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
#198872 06/09/05 02:17 PM
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Fr Deacon Lance is correct. Evidently we spotted the same question at the same time and answered simultaneously. However, since I like your reply better than mine I'll edit mine away and simply *nod* at what you've said.

I wonder if "Fr Deacon" will return to usage throughout the Roman Church?


"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
#198873 06/09/05 02:41 PM
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Dear Fr. Deacon Nikolai,

Actually, Fr. Deacon Lance and Myles have made an incomplete answer to your query! smile

"Mister" is actually the old title for addressing clergy referring to a position of authority, much like "Vladyka" or "Despota" is in connection with Bishops.

So "Master John Schorne" would be, today, "Fr. John Schorne" (who is a local saint venerated in St George' Chapel in Myles' country and the old patron against the gout).

In the same way, "clerical" or "clerk" means "priestly" and "priest."

Aristocratic families hired priests for services in their castles (where chapels were to be had) and also for writing out legal documents which had to be done in Latin - and priests were trained in Latin, of course.

So "clerical work" today means filing, paper-work as a result.

Also, the neck-tie men wear comes from the old collar priests wore (related to the Crusader's white bandage cloth they wrapped around their necks).

I give guided tours around the Legislature, you know! wink

Alex

#198874 06/09/05 02:43 PM
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Dear Fr. Stephanos,

Which one? smile

Alex

#198875 06/10/05 08:30 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
"Do you know why the Latins came up with the term The Reverend Mister Lastname for addressing their deacons in formal letters while the Orthodox used The Reverend Father Deacon Firstname?"
Note that "Father Deacon" is a Russian construction; in Greece, deacons are addressed simply as "Father" and all clergy are addressed as "Father" or "Master".

Note also that "Reverend" is peculiar to English. In Greek, when addressing a cleric in writing, the name is prefixed with the same word used for a layman, which can be translated as "Mister", although it is, in ecclesiastical usage, always "Lord": "To Kyrio" (dative case); bishops and archimandrites are addresses as "To Kyrio ton Kyrion", "The Lord of Lords". In either case, the clerical title is placed after the name, e.g., "Mister Father Nicholai, Deacon". Also, when commemorated in church, the title is after the name, so while in a Russian Church, I am "[the] Reader Photius", in a Greek Church, I am "Photius, Reader".

The last name custom of the Latins is something that I note Byzantine Catholics still often use. It grates on me to see bishops, especially, refereed to by last name, because this is, to my sensibilities, an insult, much as a Catholic would perceive "Pope Ratzinger".

Quote

... transitional deacons, the only deacons the Latin Church had until after Vatican II. With restoration of the diaconate in the Latin Church,
Is this really true? I know that at the time of Vatican I, there was a cardinal who was a deacon. I've been told that there were permanent deacons in some religious orders and sometimes attached to cathedrals, the latter purportedly being those who finished seminary, were content with being celibate, but did not want to be priests, and worked in chancery offices.

Photius, Reader

#198876 06/10/05 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by Photius:
Note that "Father Deacon" is a Russian construction; in Greece, deacons are addressed simply as "Father" and all clergy are addressed as "Father" or "Master".
Very true Photius, although Father Deacon is a formal title and generally the way a deacon is addressed is Father Firstname as the Greeks do.

For a Russian deacon, it can be a shocking to visit a traditional Greek church and have his hand kissed as well. I understand the Greeks do this since the deacon receives communion in his hand as doesa a priest or bishop and do not do it as asking for a blessing.

Thank you all for the explanations!

In Christ,
Deacon Nikolai
http://EuphrosynosCafe.com

#198877 06/10/05 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Friends,

I guess there are all kinds of problems involving translation once Slavonic and the Slavic languages are abandoned in our Churches! wink

And who was it that mentioned assimilation?

"Ruthenian Catholic"

"Byzantine Catholic"

"Buzzin' Teen Catholic"

"Orthodox in communion with Rome"

and then,

"all you Orthodox Christians!" wink

Alex (Is Outrage)
How about "Orthodox Catholic" ? wink

Joe

#198878 06/10/05 12:07 PM
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Dear Joe,

I like to think that I'm not assimilated just yet . . . wink

Alex

#198879 06/10/05 02:40 PM
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Dear Photius,
For the sake of completeness, one might add that when Greeks who are not native speakers of English are speaking English, something strange often happens with references to the hierarchy - the first time I heard a devout Greek Orthodox layman refer to his bishop as "Mr. Firstname" I nearly passed out from shock. It took me a while (since I don't speak modern Greek) to realize how this had happened. By that time the devout layman was elsewhere so I had no opportunity to bring this to his attention.

Incognitus

#198880 06/10/05 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by incognitus:
Dear Photius,
For the sake of completeness, one might add that when Greeks who are not native speakers of English are speaking English, something strange often happens with references to the hierarchy - the first time I heard a devout Greek Orthodox layman refer to his bishop as "Mr. Firstname" I nearly passed out from shock. It took me a while (since I don't speak modern Greek) to realize how this had happened. By that time the devout layman was elsewhere so I had no opportunity to bring this to his attention.

Incognitus
Dear Incognitus,
This is an example of what we call "Byzantine English", which is something akin to translating Greek into English much as Saint Cyril translated Greek into Slavonic.

In the 1960s, the relics of three new martyrs were miraculously revealed on the Island of Lesbos. They were canonized and a service written, and their feast is celebrated on Bright Friday. The women to whom the saints revealed themselves decided to translate their lives and service into English themselves, having only studied English in school and having never been to an English speaking country. After publication, the book was quickly withdrawn and is now a collectors' item. Two examples of their Byzantine English that I can still remember: The Irmos "Having traversed the sea as dry land" was rendered as "Water passed as dryness" and the memorable sticheron that begins, "O Nicholas, the joy of Lesbians".

A map of Mount Athos with text on the back translates "bishops' staffs" as "episcopal sticks" and another, less clearly understood oddity is "manuscripts made by silk worms".

Photius, Reader

#198881 06/10/05 03:10 PM
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Dear Photius,

Forgive me, but I haven't laughed so nicely in an extended time!

The Joy of Lesbians? At last a miracle mainstream North Americans can relate to!

A good weekend to you . . .

Alex

#198882 06/10/05 03:23 PM
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When Vespers for the Saints of North America come around, I cannot help but chuckle at the beginning of one of the sticheras

"Rejoice, O Mountains of Pennsylvania!!" smile )

Truly, it is the Holy Land!!!

#198883 06/10/05 03:28 PM
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Dear Brian,

Do Lesbians live on those mountains?

Alex

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hello

Irish Melkite #424581 07/15/24 11:55 AM
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Christ is in our midst!!Mike Allo,

Welcome to the forum. You may have landed in the wrong thread. It's usual to introduce oneself in Town Hall.

Bob
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