www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Storm over Italy crucifix ruling - Pray Europe wakes up

. I don''t think that was really necessary :rolleyes:

Wasn't Pius XI the one who condemned Action Francaise?? Wasn't he who approved the infamous agreements between Catholic prelates and the Communist State in Mexico? Thanks to that agreement, thousands of Christian soldiers who stopped the fight were immediately massachred, and the Roman Church became the puppet of the government.

Even though I don't post much any more, because I'm too darn overwhelmed, I have to step in here and defend Pius XI and Franco.

Mexican:

-Pius XI condemned Action Francaise because it was taken over by a self-professed atheist. When Maurac (or whatever that guy's name was, I forget) left the AF, the Church's condemnation was withdrawn.

-It is unfair of you to imply that Pius XI was complicit in the massacre of the Cristeros or the takeover of the sees. Both of those things were disastrous outcomes of his plea for the Cristeros to lay down their arms. Of course in our 20/20 hindsight he should have let them keep fighting.

Brian:

-"Franco's" men had no part in the massacre of the Basque priests. First of all, Franco and Mola and the Requet� had led the coup precisely because there were thousands of priests being murdered by the commies under the watch of the Republican government. The Basque priests who were killed were not killed with Franco's collusion--he was not excercizing central control at that time, and people always forget that Franco was not named Generalissimo until late in 1936!

-Pius XI also recognized Franco's state, immediately upon the 1937 incorporation of the Basque provinces, who had joined the "Republicans" for purely ethnic reasons.

LatinTrad

PS It is amazing to me that Eastern Orthodox, who honor "St. Constantine the Great" (as I do myself!) would find any fault with Francisco Franco--a strong, Christian military leader who defeated the enemies of the Church.

From "The Spanish Civil War" by Hugh Thomas pgs 512-513:


"The Bishop of Victoria, Monsignor Mugica, had been now several months in Rome and, when news came that certain Basque priests who had sympathized with, or acted as chaplains to, the Basque Nationalist forces had been shot, he wrote a full, reasoned, and convincing report to the Pope. He saw Pius XI on 24 November and the subsequent papal representation to Franco was one reason why the shootings of Basque priests-there had already been 14 of them- came to an end
All these priests had been shot precipitously without trial, and buried without coffins, funeral services, or official registration"
"Later Cardinal Goma' tried to explain the deaths of these priests by saying that they had brought their troubles on themselves: a view which, expressed in an open letter to President Aquirre, brought another denunciation by Monsignor Mugica before the Pope (He had already told GOma to his face that Franco and his soldiers would have done better to have kissed the feet of the venerable Father Arin then to shoot him"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rose:

"We are called to live out the mission of the Church, "Go ye therefore into all the nations, theaching them whatsoever I have commanded you, Baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"."

Yes, it's our calling as Christians, but is it the calling of the government? Shouldn't the government be for ALL the people, including those who aren't Christians?

How would you feel if we in Scandinavia returned to our custom of having pictures of Martin Luther in the class rooms and teaching the children that this great man restored the true and pure Evangelic faith which had been polluted by the Mary-worshipping, indulgence-paying Papists??

Christian

Dear Brian,

You are right - I ask you to forgive me a sinner.

It was my uncontrolled knee-jerk reaction to American foreign policy theories . . .

Alex

Dear Christian,

Well, I don't think it is the same thing - comparing Luther with the more general symbol of the Cross.

And I'm not arguing to have Christian symbols in truly secular, public areas.

The thing is - I don't know what the public school system is like in Italy.

Here in Canada, for instance, we have a public school system (ie. publicly funded) that is 100% Roman Catholic.

In other words, Protestant and other tax dollars support it.

Is that wrong? That is the debate, but it is a muted one. Originally, the Catholic system was put in place to service French-language school children, many of whom were Catholic. But today that situation is no longer around.

In our provincial legislature, many members refuse to vote to have the Our Father removed from the beginning exercises.

Yes, it is a Christian prayer - but it is part of what has become a struggle for tradition with immigrants being perceived to somehow wanting to make a Christian society adapt to them and their non-Christian religions - especially since Christians are also repressed in many of the immigrants' lands of origin etc.

Now they want to return prayer to public schools within a multi-faith context.

There is a trend against Political Correctness - civil servants have religious icons and things out on their desks at Christmas time - this was formerly forbidden under a socialist government here (you have some socialists governments in Scandinavia too, no?).

And anyone decrying the Christmas tree in public places - well, they don't any more.

So it would depend on what the tradition was formerly in that school and school system with respect to the Cross.

That Muslim activist may just be wanting to stir up trouble.

Some of them tend to do that these days, you know . . .

By the way, Luther venerated Mary until his dying breath, even though he spoke out against what he perceived to be "excesses." And the Lutherans in Sweden and Finland tend to be very positive about the Virgin Mary anyway.

Alex

Dear Brian,

Yes, Pius XI was the one who made the anti-fascist statements - but it was Pius XII whose statements in Italy prevented the erection of death camps there.

And it was Pius XII who led a secret army of priests and nuns that saved the lives of over 800,000 Jews, as we see in the book by Pinchas Lapide (an American soldier in Italy and later an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi) entitled, "The Last Three Popes and the Jews."

Unfortunately, there are Jewish groups today that continue the tired attacks on Pope Pius XII - and who helped prevent his deserved beatification.

My father belonged to one of Pius XII's underground groups and helped save Jews. He was sworn to secrecy about his group for 25 years after the end of WWII.

I find modern attacks on Pius XII to be not only reprehensible - but interesting also, since they are made by those who had no connection to the Holocaust.

Alex

Dear LatinTrad,

I agree!

And, FYI, there is an anti-pope in Spain who has canonized "Saint Francisco Franco."

He also canonized Christopher Columbus - who was to have been beatified by Pope John Paul II until groups in the West raised a ruckus about Columbus being a symbol of slavery.

Alex

Posted by Orthodox Catholic:

"Yes, it is a Christian prayer - but it is part of what has become a struggle for tradition with immigrants being perceived to somehow wanting to make a Christian society adapt to them and their non-Christian religions - especially since Christians are also repressed in many of the immigrants' lands of origin etc."


Dear Alex,

It is difficult to find the balance when talking about premitting the expressions of Faith of a particular religious community to happen in public places that are government controlled.

I am not sure that it is enough to say that a particular prayer should be permitted because it is part of a struggle to sustain the traditions of the members of the majority faith in a country. As you point out, that is not permitted for the most part to our brothers and sisters in countries which are governed by followers of Islam.

The existence of a secular government which ensures that the rights of the majority do not impign on the rights of minorities was the solution developed by our Founding Fathers and Mothers. That solution is being refined as we meet new exegencies and find new ways to keep the intent and protect rights. Quite often it is a struggle.

Those Christians in Islamic Countries would benefit if such a secular government was engaged in a struggle were taking place in their countries, don't you think?

Perhaps I misunderstand but it seems to me that some who want to maintain their traditions think that the way to do it is to impose them on others whose traditions are different. They seem to believe that their traditions will die if the government doesn't support their tradition and ignore the traditions of others.

It seems to me that if the traditions or beliefs in question are so weak and fragile, the believers who hold them need to rededicate themselves to what they hold dear. No government can make believers or force them to rededicate themselves to their beliefs.

Isn't the lack of such support the real motivator for believers in non-majority traditions to see to it that their beliefs get the same treatment at the hands of government as those of believers who hold the faiths of the majority?

Thanks for hearing me out.

Steve

Dear Steve,

Excellent points - and please don't shoot the messenger, I was but trying to convey the thinking about the Lord's Prayer here.

We had quite a legal tussle over it with a Jew taking on a one-man campaign against it.

He got the courts to ban it in municipal governments.

People then began to come before the municipal council meetings convened to recite it publicly.

And then the lawyers came out to tell them they can't do that etc.

Then a mayor said, "To heck with it," and began saying the Lord's Prayer himself and recanted his ever following the court order etc.

Others then began to threaten the individual above, and challenged his ever having been in a Nazi death camp etc. It got real ugly, as they say.

But we don't have quite the separation of church and state that you do - although I understand that you don't really have separation of church and state, but only no established Christian Church like the Anglican/Episcopalian (thankfully ).

Your courts have tended to impose their view of separation of church and state in your country - but there really is nothing of the sort in your original national documents.

We have crosses in our coats of arms and flags as well.

I think that if I were a non-Christian, I would see Christian symbols and prayers as part of the original heritage of North America and also part of the living heritage of the majority here, and therefore things to be respected and not to be intimidated by.

I would say that it is because of the Christian heritage of North America that we have a multi-faith, multicultural society where diversity is respected.

So I disagree with your premise as being neo-modern American .

And everyone knows you Americans don't know what you are doing at home - or abroad.

You just think that the world thinks like you do.

Alex

It is amazing to me that Eastern Orthodox, who honor "St. Constantine the Great" (as I do myself!) would find any fault with Francisco Franco--a strong, Christian military leader who defeated the enemies of the Church.

Dear Latin Trad:

In the Spanish Civil War, a whole Romanian Orthodox Batallion joined the Christian Armies of General Franco, they had their priests with them, and their leaders, Ioan Mota and Vasile Marin died fighting against the Communists.

They saw no division between Orthodox and Catholics, they saw all of us as one Church as Codreanu and Horia Zima taught, they had Catholic and Orthodox priests with them, blessing and celebrating sacraments for the Christian Armies.

It's not people's fault to believe all what the liberal and communists authors wrote after WWII. In our schools they no longer teach us the truth of history.

Dear Mexican,

And your point is . . .?

Alex

Dear Brian,

"Ugly Americans"

Are there any other kind, as far as most of the world today is concerned?

The first comment I took from a Jewish journalist here who publicly said he is indeed grateful, as a Jew, to be living in a Christian society like North America.

And if I lived in Thailand, I would have no problem accepting the King as my own, and respecting the Buddhist culture of that nature.

I might even take up meditation on the Gospel in the lotus position.

Is that Incognitus I hear coming fast and furious?

All I'm saying, and I think I can say it as a sociologist, is that religious symbols are just such.

We don't all need to become a secular "non-entity" in religious and cultural terms to live together in harmony.

That is, again, a neo-American faux pas that, unfortunately, leaves a bad taste in the mouths of any nation that your country messes with.

Alex