www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Is Europe Dying.? Is the Pope too late?

"To put the matter directly: Europe, and especially western Europe, is in the midst of a crisis of civilizational morale. The most dramatic manifestation of that crisis is not to be found in Europe's fondness for governmental bureaucracy or its devotion to fiscally shaky health care schemes and pension plans, in Europe's lagging economic productivity or in the appeasement mentality that some European leaders display toward Islamist terrorism. No, the most dramatic manifestation of Europe's crisis of civilizational morale is the brute fact that Europe is depopulating itself."

For the entire article:

http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/item/2005/0406/weig/weigel_europe.html

CDL

No, if the French formula for resuscitating its declining population is successful, and copied througout Western Europe!

See:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/09/23/france.families.reut/

Amado

And this is one of the ways the Muslims are working to take over the nation. As the birth rates have been declining among Christians and other citizens the Muslims are increasingly moving in and having large numbers of children. Fr. Pacwa, in a talk here in B'ham a few years back, gave us the percentage of death and growth. It was truly astounding. Also, here in the US the same goal is in mind. As Christians we are giving up our role in raising families for Christ and allowing others to raise families for whoever it is. The world needs to wake up and take notice.

Here is another link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4274200.stm

And TIME says "Generation Jihad" is born in Europe:

Full story at:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1109334,00.html

Amado

I think it a bit much to suggest that Islamic population growth is part of some sort of plot. Europeans are life-denying, Muslims welcome children. It is as simple as that.
Here in the US, it is we life-affirming Catholics who are growing [along with Amish, conservative Protestants, etc]. I like to tell people who are shocked that I have five children and am open to more that it is part of a Catholic conspiracy. I am joking, of course, but they often get a worried look on their faces when I say this.
-Daniel

An interesting article on the subject of population

Page 5 & 8
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:5p6VnOiYUEoJ:www.ffhl.org/newsletters/NL19web.pdf+fr+mitch+pacwa+on+islamic+birth+rate&hl=en

The Pope on birth rates
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1287053/posts

Bishop Melki
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ZISLMLEB.HTM

Dear Pani Rose you said:

" And this is one of the ways the Muslims are working to take over the nation. As the birth rates have been declining among Christians and other citizens the Muslims are increasingly moving in and having large numbers of children."

I say:

A person has to be quite ignorant of world history and/or naive if they believe that the Muslim mentality is the same as ours, or for that matter the same as the mentality of any other religion in the world.

It is not the Muslim love of life that turns them into suicide bombers, or makes them indifferent to the sufferings of their own people...and it is not their love for life that makes them have many children.

I believe someone wrote a book on the bloody borders of Islam. It seems any place in the world where people of other religions border on an area with Muslims, the Islamic terrorists eventually chase them away. A perfect example today would be Kosovo, where the Christians are fearful for their lives and have either left or are leaving.

Now let's consider the past. When the Albanian terrorists were frightening the Serbs so that they would leave Kosovo, the Serbs did leave. No one stopped them, nor did Serbia refuse to take them in. But when Serbia decided to rataliate in the same fashion in order to hold on to Kosovo, the Iranians etc. were sitting at the borders making sure that the Kosovans would and could not leave. Instead the Kosovans were told by their authorities to say to the media that they love Kosovo, and didn't want to leave. Mind you, even the french realized and stated recently, that they follow their leaders blindly.

If one noticed on the CNN's propaganda programs at the time of the war, they could not help but notice the turbaned one's in the background.

Of course we know that Clinton bombed the place back to the stone age and then promised that Kosovo will remain part of Serbia and that the Serb minority had nothing to fear. Well today, the Serbs have either left or are leaving because of the terrorism, and all the Christian monasteries and churches have been destroyed...and they are demanding freedom from Serbia. So much for Clinton and his 'promise'.

They not only chased the Christians out for the expansion of the religious/political entity called Islam, but they removed any sign of the culture that existed there for over 1,000 years.

Another example would be Cyprus. When Kissinger allowed Cyprus to be invaded by Turkey, the Greek Cypriots, (the majority) ran for their lives. The few that remained in that part of Cyprus were never heard from again.

Turks were transported from the mainland to settle in the occupied area. All the agriculture was destroyed and then replaced by poppies, a Muslim staple.

This is but two examples. There are similar one's in India, Philippines and in Africa where millions have been massacred.

As I said, Islam is a religious/political entity, that believes in expanding itself by any means possible, and that would include increasing their population by having a high birth rate. Believe me it is not a love of 'life'.

I think I'll quote the following by the Iranian hero 'Kharrai'. It should make us realize that we do not worship the same God.

"No drop of liquid is more popular with God than the drop of blood that is shed for him.

The best deed of the faithful is fighting for God.

Participate in holy war, so you will be happy and need nothing.

One hour of holy war is better than sixty years of worship."

Zenovia

Muslims don't love their children, but have as many as they do only to further the cause of Islam? :rolleyes:
I suggest that in many ways Muslims, loving children, are healthier than Europeans, who are contracepting their way to oblivion, while Muslims have babies.
And as I have reiterated over and over here, the Catholic Church teaches quite authoritatively that Muslims do worship the One True God, obviously in an incomplete way.
Quoting Muslim preachers, or even the Koran, to show that Islam is inherently and unequivocally violent is like quoting radical Zionists or the Old Testament to prove that Judaism is by nature violent.
-Daniel

Zenovia, excellent points!

Iconophile,

Maybe you would be interested in reading our own Fr. Deacon Robert Spencers books and studies on Islam.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/spencer/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/articles/

I can only find this article in Latin which I can't read, I do wish it was someplace in English. I think Pope Bendict has a very different outlook. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10582

Pani Rose

Dear Daniel you said:

"I suggest that in many ways Muslims, loving children, are healthier than Europeans, who are contracepting their way to oblivion, while Muslims have babies."

I say:

To have children for political reasons, is not exactly what God intended. I recall when Roe vs. Wade came about. There were black speakers all over the courthouse square. (I was on jury duty). They were furious because they believed that the abortion bill was passed in order for them to have less children.

They were right to a certain extent. I'm not an idiot and was fully aware of how people thought at the time. No doubt that was one of the intents... but when the black speakers told them to have as many children as possible, I couldn't help but feel that it was those same children that were dying from drugs fifteen years later because they were being conceived for political expediency, not out of love.

You said:

"And as I have reiterated over and over here, the Catholic Church teaches quite authoritatively that Muslims do worship the One True God, obviously in an incomplete way."

I say:

In a very twisted way, they are a heresy you know? The problem I have is with the 'satanic' verses of the Koran. I know that verse can be very mesmorizing and it is used in satanic worship. I have read that the Koran in the original Arabic is quite mesmerizing.

I frankly love the chanting from the minarets, (I was raised with Eastern music), but I find it has a certain nationalistic martial quality. Something that I have also found in a lot of the German music, (which I also love), especially during the Nazi era.

You said:

"Quoting Muslim preachers, or even the Koran, to show that Islam is inherently and unequivocally violent is like quoting radical Zionists or the Old Testament to prove that Judaism is by nature violent."

I say:

Actually, most Muslims are not violent, (frankly I'm quite fond of them), but it accepts violence for the advancement of it's faith. Their problem is basically Islam which means 'submit'. They not only submit to 'God', but submit to their teachers blindly, even sacrificing the lives and well being of their loved ones.

Also they believe totally in one's fate. In other words, if one was born in an area where they must suffer in order to retain their territory or advance their territory, that is their fate.

As an example the Palestinians. When they ran out of Palestine because of the Jews, and tried to settle in other Arab lands, they were not given the opportunity to establish themselves. Their fate was to suffer by going back and re-establish the territory as a Muslim land.

Now compare that with say the Greeks, that had colonized and lived in Constantinople, Smyrna, Alexandria, etc, etc. Here they were the majority and lived in these lands for thousands of years, and yet when they were ethnically cleansed Greece took them in.

Now that same situation with migrations of populations could be repeated over and over again for all the different people in Europe and no doubt the Middle East and the world.

Also we have to realize that we can't fully understand people that do not worship a Triune God. Where there is no concept of redemption, there is no concept of oneself as being a sinner in need of that redemption. Without that awareness, there can be no Grace.

We are talking about totally different mindsets... though the heart can be greater in many Moslems than in many baptized Christian. Yet the base values are different so that they might say things that are not a true reflection of what they believe, and do so without any qualms because the expansion of their faith goes beyond falsehood.

Zenovia

The Church everywhere has three enemies. The world, the flesh, and the devil. They enemies are aptly represented by the devilish heretics who are today called Muslims. The flesh is our own selfishness and lust. The world is the worldly philosophy of secularism.

Which one is worse? I do not know. I think they should all be resisted.

Dan L

The Church everywhere has three enemies. The world, the flesh, and the devil. They enemies are aptly represented by the devilish heretics who are today called Muslims. The flesh is our own selfishness and lust. The world is the worldly philosophy of secularism.

Amen Dan!

I am sure there are many wonderful Muslims who are very friendly, loving people. It is unfortunately the news does not speak of these, it only highlights the jihad that is taking place in today's world. But sadly it is the jihad that we have to be on our toes about. Never ceasing to pray for one another and the conversion of us all, those churched and unchurched.

Pani Rose

Shlomo Dan,
Your quote: "They [sic] enemies are aptly represented by the devilish heretics who are today called Muslims." is in direct contradiction of "NOSTRA AETATE" which states:

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

Further, your statement is contradicts the Catechism of the Church section 841 which states:

The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

I would hope that you would conform to Council edits on these matters.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

The world, the flesh, and the devil have a grip quite firmly on Christians as well.
Before the Unity of the Body of Christ- often enough violated even in violence- there is a fundamental human solidarity. Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and your run of the mill Hottentots have babies because they love children, and every child born is a wild declaration of hope.
It is only when the poison of secularism takes root in the soul, which may declare itself "saved" and Christian, that men and women choose infertility.
In the Middle Ages, men had the sense to call the Muslim invaders "the scourge of God"; they didn't call them Satanic, or insist they only had children for evil ends.
A little more introspection and self knowledge seems to be called for here: that Muslims have more children than Christians would seem to be a call to examination of conscience for the Christians, not to self-righteousness.
Zenovia and Dan- have you ever seen the wonderful Iranian film The Color of Paradise ? It is available from any good public library and may work wonders humanizing the "Islamic Other" for you...
And Yuhannon- thank you and God bless you, my friend!
-Daniel

Y,

I think you well know that heretics can even worship the same God that we worship. Moreover, the great concern is the violent Jihadists who represent a percentage of Muslims. No one knows for sure how large this group is but no one seems able to control or refute them. Heresies need to be resisted. Nothing in the CCC tells us otherwise.

I,

A further comment. I think it is not nice to keep pretending that there aren't very dangerous and evil people who are trying to kill us. They don't distinguish between faithful Christians and those who are worldly when they hijack planes or strap bombs upon their children. At the same time there are nice Muslims in the world. I have taught both those who seem to be opposed to most decent things and I have taught even more who are Godly and gladly work toward holiness.

Every time we get into these discussions some emphasise the danger of Islam. There are dangers. Some insist that we get what we deserve and at least imply that Muslims are all Godly. Many Muslims are Godly.

But extremes miss the point and I really get tired of those who defend every Muslim action as if every action were holy. One gets the impression that it is evil to be a Christian.

Yes, God seems to be using some of these violent actions as judgments against us but I'm very sick of reading that somehow by worshipping the God of Abraham is in some way a justification for blowing people to hell.

The Truth of the article is that Europe is dying. Perhaps it ought to. Perhaps every remnant of European civility will someday be completely gone. But I can't imagine why it should be. I like Pope Benedict's approach to reevangelize Europe. I'm not interested in 7th century barbarism coming to Europe.

CDL