www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Is Europe Dying.? Is the Pope too late?

O Lord, kum ba yah! :p

I disagree. Attacking military targets in times of war is very justified.

Dostoyevsky was quite correct but there is no way one can construe and innocent two year old with valid military targets in a time of war (in which we have been attacked).

Almost correct.

We sided with Stalin � a horrible, murderous communist � during WWII because we needed his help to defeat an even larger evil (Hitler). Afterwards we occasionally sided with evil men because they were willing to help us fight an even greater evil (the Soviet Union). As I have noted earlier, one cannot fight all of the world�s evil at once. One must do it in pieces.

Don�t worry; there are very good men and women leading the country at the moment.

And, for the record, almost all dictators are bad. Again, like our support of Stalin during the war against Hitler, one must find allies where one can. Our support of Stalin to defeat an even greater evil does not equate to blanket support for Stalin and all that he stood for. It�s not a hard concept to grasp, here. I am really surprised that Daniel will not address it.

There is nothing to forgive. I disagree with many of your positions yet you are free to hold them. I do find such ongoing cynicism to be surprising. I see problems everywhere yet I am eternally optimistic.

Admin

What a horrible thing to praise!

I cringe with every bomb that goes off. I think it was Golda Meier, the former Israeli Prime Minister, who stated: �We can forgive you for killing our children, but it will be a very long time before we can forgive you for forcing us to kill your children.�

No one wants war. But the alternative to war is not peace. In many cases the alternative to war for those who refuse to defend themselves is nothing less than enslavement to tyranny.

Admin

Dear Teen you said:

"In a nutshell: I didn't and don't agree with the war in Iraq, but sometimes it sure is fun to see the country get blown to bits (not people, just places and buildings and holdouts that oppose our domination)!

Isn't that so typically American? I suspect others feel the same."

I say:

No they don't. Actually I believe very few Americans feel that way. Any form of 'destruction' is a negation of God's creative power....certainly not a way a true Christian would feel.

Zenovia

Dear Daniel you said:

"Forgive me if I follow the money and note that our enemies are a select few, and that our policies favor lining the pockets of our rulers and their cronies."

I say:

You see what you want to see. That does not mean it is so.

You said:

" Forgive me if I think the real motive is global corporate empire,.."

I say:

Maybe it is or maybe it's paranoia on your part... but I would certainly wonder though which corporation? An American one? A Japanese one? A German one?

You said:

" but then that all this talk of promoting freedom is a smokescreen, an appeal to the sentiments of well-meaning Americans,..."

I say:

Yet it is a known fact that democracies do not start wars. What would you do?

You say:

"... we want to rule the world and make a lot of money doing so."

I say:

Why not? Better us than them. You know I can't understand why people that have been raised within a certain culture and think in a certain way (because of the culture they were raised in), always critisize it. Doesn't that mean self hatred?

As for our economic system, it stinks. But we also have to consider that when an economic system changes, people die. Actually millions upon millions of people die. Let's not forget Lenin's experiment.

Zenovia

Admin and Zenovia,

I know! I think the whole thing simply relates to my childhood pyromania...I like exploding things and fire, and when the two are coupled together I just can't resist a bit of inward fascination!

But then again I'm not a "true Christian," as Zenovia puts it...thanks for reminding me! :rolleyes:

Logos Teen

Dear Logos Teen,

You know you were supposed to out grow of that as you entered adulthood. Maybe a good blessing with Holy Water can cure that and not have posters afraid to invite you over for dinner sometimes worrying that some is going to blew up or go ablaze. You may have to devolop a devotion to Saint Florian the patron saint to Fire Fighters (I can say that as Fire/Rescue Service Chaplain). Remember humour requires the right timing.

WE love ya anyway, even with the gas can and matches.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Military targets? What an odd assertion. I am not aware of any historian who doubts that the USA did resort to indiscriminate bombing of cities in WWII. General Curtis LeMay was in charge of the campaign and studied RAF tactics before beginning bombing cities in Germany and Japan. For a short overview of this try this link [crf-usa.org]
Even if Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets, more precise means were available, even in the 40s, than leveling a whole city.
It would be like if there was a guy holed up in his house with a gun and the police dropped a bomb on the whole block to get him, killing all his neighbors. It would be totally disproportionate.
In fact if you defend this you have no argument in principle with Osama bin Laden except his analysis of things. He believed that the USA was a Satanic entity and attacked the military and financial centers of that entity, killing far fewer than died in our WWII bombings. In fact, he has appealed to the logic of Hiroshima in justifying the September 11 attacks.
The Church has been very clear on indiscriminate warfare, and if vaporizing tens of thousands of women, children and the aged isn't indiscriminate I don't know what is [the men were all at the front, you know].
At least we have found one thing we finally agree on: Garrett's glee at distruction is completely reprehensible.
-Daniel

Dear Daniel you said:

"Even if Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets, more precise means were available, even in the 40s, than leveling a whole city."

I say:

Actually we developed the bomb because we were afraid that Germany would do so. We had never intended to bomb Japan. The problem was that if we invaded Japan it was approximated that 100,000 of our troops would have died. It was them or us. It was not an easy decision.

They did want peace though as long as they kept their emporor, for they knew that the Soviets had entered the war. In the end they kept their emporor, but had we not occupied them, would Japan have become the nation they are today? Remember they were a 'martial' people and committed quite a few attrocities on the nations they occupied.

We know the Germans did, but somehow or other we tend to ignore what was done to the people in the Far East.

Zenovia

Father Anthony,

Bless!

I'll have to look up St. Florian. Maybe he can help me with my smoking; half the fun is watching the smoke.

Logos Teen

Dear Logos Teen you said:

"I know! I think the whole thing simply relates to my childhood pyromania...I like exploding things and fire, and when the two are coupled together I just can't resist a bit of inward fascination!

But then again I'm not a "true Christian," as Zenovia puts it...thanks for reminding me!"

I say:

I'm sorry I was so judgemental. I know of a few times that I was happy to see some things 'disappear' with a loud pouf and bang.

Zenovia

Gather the regiment, Garrett. We march tonight - for Ohio! Do watch the smoking, however. After witnessing my dad's death from lung cancer, I decided I didn't want to go that way so I quit.

Dear Logos Teen,

I never tried Saint Florian for that, and maybe we should have being that two thirds of my last station smoked. But, then you know what they say about firefighters, you have to respect fire to put out fire.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Zenovia- Do you believe that circumstances determine morality, or do you believe in objective moral truths, that are unchanged by circumstance?
Is the right thing to do the one that has the fewer evil consequences? Or should one do right whatever the consequence?
I am not being a smart aleck; it really sounds like you hold to the former on both of these questions.
Our Lord never promised us success in this world; all He promised us we could expect here was persecution.
And Garrett, as a former smoker, I suggest that the best time to quit is when you are sick; then smoking is not pleasurable and you are only feeding the addiction. Much easier to quit then....
-Daniel

Dear Daniel you asked me:

"Zenovia- Do you believe that circumstances determine morality, or do you believe in objective moral truths, that are unchanged by circumstance?"

I believe in objective moral truths, but I'm also a history buff. This is an imperfect world, and I am fortunate that I don't have to make decisions that will determine the future of anyone...other than those I am personally responsible for.

I can only pray that the person that will make those decisions is a devout person and that they will ask for our Lords enlightenment and guidance. Since we are a democracy it is within my will to choose the person that 'I' trust. That person would most likely be the one that see's the world as I see it and conforms the most to my own ideals.

Zenovia