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I am posting this here because all the other fora are strictly Byzantine. However, this affects the Universal Church, Byzantine, Roman, and otherwise. Plus... (and most importantly) ...I just want to post it. Pope prepares to lift restrictions on Tridentine Mass English bishops request secret report from Latin Mass Society By Simon Caldwell The Pope might soon allow the world's Catholic priests the right to celebrate the old rite Latin Mass on Sundays and holy days without the permission of their bishops, according to sources close to the Vatican. John Paul II is understood to be ready to grant a "universal indult" by the end of the year to permit all priests to choose freely between the celebration of Mass in the so-called Tridentine rite used up to 1962 - before the disciplinary reforms of the Second Vatican Council - and the novus ordo Mass used after 1970. It will mean that a priest who wants to celebrate old rite Masses will no longer need to apply for an indult to Ecclesia Dei, a pontifical commission set up to study the implications of the Lefebvrist schism, after first gaining permission from his bishop. The indult may be announced as part of the publication of forthcoming juridical notes on Ecclesia de Eucharistia, the new encyclical on the Eucharist, published on Holy Thursday, in which the Pope affirmed the Church's traditional teaching of the sacrificial nature of the Mass. It might also be announced at the Basilica of St Mary Major in Rome on May 24, when Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, the Prefect for the Congregation of the Clergy and the president of Ecclesia Dei, becomes the first cardinal prefect to celebrate an old rite Mass in a main Roman basilica for 30 years. Organised by the Latin Mass movement, Una Voce, the event is one of many indications that Rome is dropping restrictions on the celebration of the old rite. Last month, the Holy Father, who celebrated a Tridentine Mass last summer, published a command called Rescriptum ex Audientia to authorise the celebration of the old rite Mass in St Peter's Basilica, Rome, by any priest who possessed an indult. The Vatican also asked the Scottish bishops, ahead of their five-yearly ad limina visit to Rome in March, to reveal what provisions they made for the celebration of the old rite Mass in their dioceses. Since the meeting, the Scottish bishops have stepped up their provision from just four a year in the whole of the country to at least one a month in Glasgow and Edinburgh. The same requests have been made in a questionnaire to the English and Welsh bishops, whose next ad limina visit to Rome will take place in the autumn. The bishops have invited the Latin Mass Society (LMS), set up to promote the practice of the old rite, to submit a report on the provision of the Tridentine Mass ahead of their low week meeting in London this week when they were scheduled to discuss the issue. John Medlin, LMS development officer, confirmed that a "full document" had been circulated to the bishops but refused to discuss its contents. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/HomeNews.htmNow, this would have its pluses and minuses, but I think it has the possibility of being something truly great for the Catholic Church (not just the RCC), as well as with Orthodox-Catholic relations. Christos Voskrese! Logos Teen
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Why should wider use of the Tridentine Mass affect Orthodox-Catholic relations??
Surely, greater Byzantinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches (of the Byzantine tradition) would surely have a greater effect with Orthodoxy in a positive way.
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Brian,
Not so. The Orthodox although not concerning themselves with the affairs of the Latin church are strongly against the "reforms" of VII. I have spoken to many Orthodox priest on this subject even Orientals and they say the same thing.
Of course they welcome the "Ecumenism" of Post-VII and Pope JPII. They even welcome the De-Latization of the Eastern Church as a result of VII but besides those things everything else is rejected.
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I recall that last week, many newspapers anounced a reconcilliation between the Society of St. Pius and Rome and it did not happen. This is why I am still a little bit scheptical but if this happens I think that the effects it would have in Ortthodox Catholic relations, even it those won't be so visible and are of little importance in Eastern countries, will be possitive.
One of the most important values of the Orthodox Church is its sacred liturgy, the liturgy is an esencial part of the Orthodox dignity. Roman Catholicism after the 1970's thought it was important to become more a Biblical Church closer to the people, and in many cases the importance of the sacred liturgy as the law of faith was minimized. Since the most important moment in which the Church gathers its faithful is through the services (and not through cathechism, meetings, etc), the liturgy must reflect unequivocaly the faith of the Church and its doctrine.
Another thing, the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom and the other Byzantine liturgies, as well as other rites of the Universal Church (Coptic, Armenian, Syriac) have a lot in common with the Tridentine Liturgy in their beautiful prayers, full of meaningful symbols because they all come from the Apostles and the Saints and they've all sanctified a lot of people throughout the history. By this I do not mean that the Novus Ordo Liturgy is bad or nothing like that, I would say that the Novus Ordo liturgy would have worked very well as a Low Mass because it is not so long and it's far better than a spoken mass in Latin that nobody understood. I just think it represented a rupture with the old liturgy and what it had in common with the Orthodox liturgy and that it would be possitive it it was mantained in the High Masses and the most solemn moments of the Roman Church.
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I don't think the Tridentine Mass had as much in common with the Eastern Byzantine LIturgy as might be thought at first. The ethos of the Eastern Liturgy is much more participatory and less static then the Tridentine Mass (not that the Tridentine Liturgy isn't beautiful)
I remember in my old Byzantine parish. there were some Roman-rite Caths ( angry at the changes in the Liturgy in the West) who came to Byzantine Cath Churches hoping to find a kind of Tridentine LIturgy in the East (often just because the priest faces East) but after a little bit of time found that the ethos in the East is different and they would leave to join an Indult Tridentine community. The liturgical mentality is just so different.
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I agree with Brian. Some prominent Orthodox theologians, such as the late Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory, and who was an official observer at Vatican II, praised some aspects of the liturgical reforms such as vernacular liturgy, Communion with both species and a more participational approach.
Schmemann and other Orthodox theologians have written about their difficulty with "private masses" and "low masses" and the inherint theological and liturgical difficulties these present to Orthodoxy. A "private mass" is simply a non sequitor to Byzantine thinking.
The Roman Mass has never come up at any official dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox as an item for discussion by the Orthodox. The Orthodox, while they may have private opinions, are willing to allow the Roman Church to police its own liturgical issues rather than interfering.
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Yea that's right, but I think it's much an aspect of culture. I agree with you about the individualistic and clerical character of thre low said latin masses which would be the antithesis of the community-sense of the Byzantine liturgy. The Novus Ordo is very participatory and has a clear epiclesis, and some Eucharistic prayers have points of contact with the East, plus, communion under boith kinds is now encouraged.
I believe that if the Tridentine Mass is restored, it won't be as individualistic as before, I think a new hybrid mass will be born, because some aspects of the new liturgy will probably be preserved, such as the universal prayer, the litanies, lay readers, which existed before Vatican II.
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Vesting will probably be a big issue too. Those things are expensive! Most priests that want to persue this would need two sets of everything.
If this story is true, it will initially be good news. I have a lot of questions about how it would all be implimented but that's not to say I oppose the idea. I think it would be good for those of us who appreciate the reverence of the traditional liturgy.
But I wouldn't expect most parishes to opt-in. I wonder how the church could police the proper celebration of the mass.
It could degenerate into a free-for-all as parishes try to fit the practices into their sanctuaries and start experimenting and complaints would start flying into the chanceries.
Practices like retaining lay Eucharistic ministers, altar girls or the "stripped-down" vestments currently in use. The celebrant facing the congregation should not be a problem since it was always done at Saint Peters basilica "in the round" so to speak, but I doubt that most people would want or expect that.
Would the mass be in Latin or the vernacular? Technically, I think we might expect them to be in Latin but what if these priests want to use English, Spanish, Polish or Old Church Slavonic?
And will they follow the current lectionary or the old one? I think some purists will be critical of everything that is attempted.
Of course, the Vatican probably has contemplated this for years even if it has been resisted all this time. My poor questions probably have been anticipated.
Michael
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I don't think that an easternization of the RC Holy Mass is acceptable; no more acceptable than westernization of the Divine Liturgy. The RC liturgy should be loyal to its Western heritage.
Logos Teen
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Michael, admixture should not be a problem because a priest will either offer the Mass according to the 1962 Missale Romanum, or the Paul VI Missal.
If he follows 1962 he will be required to follow the rubrics of the 1962 Missal, including vestment styles and colors, etc. Similarly if he uses the Paul VI he will be required to use whatever is appropriate according to the diocesan norms.
If someone is looking for the traditional Mass in the vernacular the Anglican Usage granted by Pope John Paul II is the best in that regard.
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The Orthodox although not concerning themselves with the affairs of the Latin church are strongly against the "reforms" of VII. I have spoken to many Orthodox priest on this subject even Orientals and they say the same thing. My private conversations have been to the contrary. But, turning to official dialogue, I cannot recall a single statement in all of the Catholic-Orthodox official dialogue in whicht he Orthodox object to the Counciliar reforms. Axios
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More information on the wider use of the Tridentine mass. From Inside the Vatican:
The Return of the Latin Mass?
Exclusive: The Vatican is preparing to call, in the clearest way since the Second Vatican Council, for an end to liturgical abuses -- and for far wider use of the old Latin Mass
�The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace.�
By Robert Moynihan
VATICAN CITY, May 13, 2003 � Forty years after the Second Vatican Council, after four decades of liturgical "experimentation" which has troubled many of the faithful, Rome is about to issue a major disciplinary document, ending years of a generally "laissez faire" attitude toward liturgical experimentation and �do-it-youself� Masses.
The document is now in draft form and is expected to be published between October and Christmas this year.
In a bombshell passage, the document will also encourage far wider use of the �old Mass�, the Tridentine rite Mass, in Latin, throughout the Roman Catholic Church.
The new, stricter guidelines for celebrating the liturgy, and the mandate to celebrate the old Latin Mass more widely, even on a weekly basis, in every parish in the world, will be contained in a document to be published by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, headed by Nigerian Cardinal Francis Arinze.
�We expect the document to be published before Christmas,� Arinze told "Inside the Vatican" in an exclusive interview. �We want to respond to the spiritual hunger and sorrow so many of the faithful have expressed to us because of liturgical celebrations that seemed irreverent and unworthy of true adoration of God. You might sum up our document with words that echo the final words of the Mass: �The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace.��
We will be reporting in more detail on this historic document in future issues of "Inside the Vatican." From everything I can piece together, it seems to be an absolute fact that the Vatican is doing this, as Cardinal +Arinze makes clear. Logos Teen
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I welcome the return of the Traditional Latin Liturgy,there is room for the Modern & Traditional to co-exist, just as the Eastern Liturgy co-exists with the Western.
In Christ,
James
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If it is OK of the Byzantine Church to celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil the Great, and St. James, then the Latins should be able to celebrated the older Mass on feastdays et al. It works in our church.
Will this mean that our own clergy will see a signal to renew the Byzantine High Mass, however odd that may sound? Will a pre-Vatican style of Byzantine Liturgy become in vogue again?
Just wondering.
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Maybe it would be a good idea for the Latins to have the Novus Ordo Mass as a Low Mass (it's much better than the low tridentine one) and to have the Traditional mass as high mass in important services and fests.
Just as the hierarchy of the Ukrainian and Russian Byzantine Catholic Churches did, establishing the pre-nikonian ritual as well as the "modern one", the Pope would probabyl allow the use of the modern and old rites but forbiding priests to mix them.
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