www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Malabar trouble?

Dear Qathuliqa,

Yes, I'm really not familiar with the entire argument and so can't say myself.

I've come across priests who have adopted Buddhist practices such as Christian Zen temples etc.

One priest I knew who was a missionary in Asia allowed his converts to keep their Buddhas at home.

There is much in Tibetan Buddhist practice that I see as being capable of adoption by an Eastern Church - they have prostrations and beads and even adorn their religious icons with shawls etc.

This is all part of inculturation and it is fascinating.

And your Significant Other, being of Ukrainian background, is probably inculturating you as well!

(Don't resist it, Big Guy, just let it happen!)

Alex

I honestly don't know if she has any association at all with the Ukrainian part of her. I don't think she has any connection with it at all, save for the blood, and a few relatively unknown relatives who themselves have no real connection to Ukraine other than being Spanish-speaking Argentines who only go to a Ukrainian Catholic parish. She's more Italian than anything else...and I have been saying "How you doin?" more than I used to...I guess that's inculturation. :p

Dear Qathuliqa,

Then don't resist anything else about your relationship - and just let it happen!

And don't think I'm "leading you into temptation."

Alex

Mor:

I once saw a tv programme about India, it was from the Spanish TVE in the later 70's.
There was an interview with a Spanish jesuit who had his "ashram" in India. He started to sing some hymns and after that, he was asked about those hymns, and he said "this hymn tells the story of the God N. and the God N. about the tree of N, I am teaching them about Adam and Eve". It was hard to understand if the jesuit was converted or if people were being converted.
It's good and healthy for the Churches to avoid syncretism.

About the words of the Consacration, I have read the text of chaldean liturgy, and they are not present (not like in the Latin or Byzantine texts). I'm surprised that the Latins (known for their legalism, and their obssession for the propper forms) now have an intercommunion with the Nestorians.

Dear Remie,

Well, my religion teacher, Fr. Joseph Penny CSB who died of cancer some time ago taught us comparative religion and he even had pictures of the Hindu gods and pictures of other faiths on the wall.

I think it is a good outreach tool to see how other religions are a kind of "Old Testament" to the Gospel and how they do, in fact, prepare their adherents for Christ - something that Lev Gillet also said.

For example, pre-Christian Egypt had the "Ankh" or a T-cross with a circle on top (basically for carrying it around).

Greek missionaries there told the people that the fact that they ALREADY HAD the Cross indicates God's Will that they receive the Good News about His Son Who died on the Cross.

That was how they began their preaching which was successful and the T or Tau Cross became popular with St Anthony of Egypt and St Francis and the Franciscans to this day.

Saints in Eastern Europe tended to take over where the pagan gods left off, in Ukraine the first church was built in honour of St Elias on the site of a pagan temple to the god Perun - the god of the thunderbolts.

Alex

From the little I know about the Catholic ashrams in India, they do seem a bit touched by syncretism. I've read some writings of Father Bede Griffiths and it is clear he has been influenced by Hindu spirituality.

In Christ,
Anthony

Dear Anthony,

I think that when we first come into contact with the Christian traditions that have allowed themselves to be "Hinduized" or inculturated in this way, I can see how we can feel that they have been involved with syncretism.

Bede Griffiths was never a syncretist and his contribution to Christian outreach to India is unparalleled, having brought many Hindus to accept Christ.

He never accepted the Hindu gods as realities - could someone please show ANY evidence for this?

And we should come to realize how much our own Christian traditions are amalgams of Christian faith with pre-Christian traditions of our ancestors.

Alex

Dear Alex,

Five thousand felicitations!

Personally, I feel that the Malankara Catholics (including Father Bede) would've done a better service if they'd restored traditional Syrian monasticism in India...it probably would've spurred on the Orthodox too, and then we'd really be cooking with gas. As it is, Orthodox monasticism is usually reserved to priests who are ordained while unmarried (rather like Latin diocesan priests). The Catholics have only Easternised Latin orders, except for the OIC, which started Orthodox but is based on Western concepts.

If I wasn't in love, I'd want to be a monk and try to bring back monasticism.

Dear Qathuliqa,

Never mind, once you are married and "under the Rule" of your wife, monasticism will seem like a life of perfect freedom . . .

Monasticism is the key for every Particular Church's revival and flowering, to be sure.

I guess we can just rest contented with our little scapulars and in the knowledge that our domestic "Abbesses" do provide fringe benefits that one cannot get in a monastery . . .

Alex

INDEED!!

Dear Remie,

As the Grand Stuart wrote, the words of Consecration and their necessity within the Eucharist are a later development and Rome has now recognized the Divine Liturgy of the Assyrians and the Chaldeans without them.

To be sure, the Orthodox Church's emphasis on the Epiclesis in the Eucharistic Canon reflects the same theology.

The Words of Institution are there, but they are a reliving of an historical event.

The Body and Blood of Christ are brought to us in 2002 through the action and gift of the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, Whom Christ sends to us from the Father, Who recalls to us all that Christ did in His Descent on us and Who sanctifies the Church.

The Russian Orthodox Church had an Assyrian Orthodox Church in union with it through the efforts of a Russian missionary to the Assyrians.

As I understand it, the missionary left everything alone, including the Liturgy as such, but expunged the names of the Greek Doctors from the calendar (Nestorius, Theodore and Diodore).

Alex

I've downloaded the audio version of the asyrian liturgy and I think it's beauteful, everything sounds so ancient. Could this liturgy be the most ancient, or the closest to that of the Apostles?
Are Mar Addai and St Jude Thadeusz the same person?

I've seen that in addition to the Anaphora of St Addai and Mari, the chaldeans have more anaphoras: the one of Mar Nestorius, and the anaphora of Mar Theodore (what if Nestorius and Theodore are considered heretics?).

The text of the first anaphora looks a little bit similar to the ancient Roman Canon (probably the Roman Canon had an abreviated form of this liturgy).

I've seen that some versions have inserted the words of the consacration after the "Svyat, Svyat" (I supose this is the Indian version).

I'd like to know if the chants used by the Indians are similar to those of Iraq, and if they have a special iconography.
It is said that in Iraq, Kurdish is very much used in the liturgy

I've also seen that the assyrians have adopted "roman style" statues and not the Eastern icons.