www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall A little sociological data

Maybe my friend Alex the sociologist is the only one interested in this, but can I provide some data I recently came across.

First, and this may relate to the issue of evangelization in the Eastern Catholic churches. The question is often posed as ethnic character VS. evangelization. It seems alot of 'ethnics' remain in need of evangelization.

The U.S. Catholic Bishops Migration and Refugee Office however has provided the following:

Syro-Malabarites in the US - 57% Unchurched
Syro-Malakaresee - 40% unchurched.
Ethiopian & Eritian Catholics - 50% Unchurched.
Slovaks & Rusyns - 25% Unchurched.
Ukrainians - high numbers of unchurched among post-communist immigrants.

For the Orthodox, from another source, a serious study of Orthodox demographics, assimilation, population, etc.

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese- 440,0000 adherents (at least Xmas or Easter). 525 parishes, 65% intermarry. modest growth. Most new members from births. 50% of services in English.

OCA- 115,100 adherents, 456 parishes, 65% intermarry, no growth in membership. New members equally from births, immigrants and converts. 90% English.

Antiochean - 87,700, 206 parishes, 80% intermarry, good growth, new members mostly from converts, 90% English.

Serbian - 57,500, 118 parishes, 55% intermarry, modest growth, 3/4 new members immigrants, 1/4 births, 40% English.

Ukrainian Orthodox - 30,000, 106 parishes, 67% intermarry. no growth, new members from immigrants and births. 50% English.

Carpatho-Russian - 20,000, 76 parishes, 55% intermarry. declining membership, new members from converts, 90% English.

Patriarchial parishes- 33 parishes, declining membership, new members children & immigrants, 67% English.

ROCOR - 128 parishes, modest growth, new members 2/3rds immigrants, 1/3 converts, 15% English.

In all bodies, a majority of converts have married/are marrying an Orthodox Christian.

For what its worth

Axios

Your point is well made: evangelization needs to begin with US!

I just returned from a short visit to North Carolina to see family. I was struck by the number of southern baptist, and small evangelical congregations that were offering services in spanish. It seems there is a large latin-american population of migrant workers, and now settled labor. Perhaps the Catholic Church is not able to provide for them pastorally, and so the various protestant groups are absorbing them into their communities. They are attending, obviously because they are being welcomed and fed in these Churches. Can we blame those who stray from the faith? Are we failing them?

Thank you for this enlightening work.

There is much room to speculate here and I'd love to comment more later. This information is interesting and helpful, hopefully it is accurate. Do you what years the information was compiled?

Even though the data are from two different sources, it should still be useful as is.

Thanks so much!

God Bless,
Michael

In a word,

YES

Dear Axios,

Yes, this was exactly the point I was trying to make to the Administrator about the extent to which our Churches need to preach to our "own" people before presuming to take the Gospel to others.

I'm not against English language services and we have them already - I don't want to get into that again and, let me add, I respect the Administrator for his position and vision.

As a Sunday School teacher (on Saturdays) I can tell you that there is a great hunger for the Church among young people.

The first thing I always do with a new class of students is ask them to which Church they belong.

When I ask, "How many here are Greek Catholic?" - perhaps two kids put up their hands.

"Ukrainian Orthodox?" - perhaps one.

"Ukrainian Buddhists?" etc.

The point isn't even that people are becoming unchurched after leaving school etc. They are ALREADY refusing to say which Church they belong to in their high school years, while they attend church regularly with their parents!!

We got ourselves a real crisis - and we can't go a preachin' to others while we have a great mission field right in our front yard.

I have my own views about why this is happening . . .

Alex

Interesting data.

Was there any information on the Eastern/Latin Catholic parishes? Just wondering if the majority of those parishes show declining membership and if the majority of new members are converts,immigrants (Spanish) or from births?

It is interesting to see that ROCOR is growing but OCA is declining. My guess is that the Carpatho Rusyn Diocese is following the same pattern as its sister Ruthenian church?

The Protestant churches attract more because they 'market' better, IMHO. They ofer what is needed on a basic level, be it Spanish services, employment assistance, food banks, day care or whatever. We tend to stay the course and continue with a take-us-or-leave-us attitude, leaving us with more who "leave-us" than "take-us".

Our early American parishes offered that assistance on a basic level, with support to new immigrants, social structure more than Sunday Coffees, focus on youth, etc. Many Catholic and Orthodox parishes have (again IMHO) reduced 'community' down to two hours a week with little contact duing the other 166 hours. This is not community and I believe this is where we lose.

Just my thoughts-

Sam

The information on the Orthodox is from the Hartford study whcih uses the year 2000 for the static data and 1990-2000 for the data on trends.

Axios

I cannot believe that there is "no" growth in membership in the OCA. Did they take into consideration the many missions sprouting up in the Diocese of the West and the Diocese of the South?? This leaves me sceptical.

Perhaps this is "statistically" meaning the gains do not exceed the losses. Remember people die, sure in some places the parishes grow in others they shrink. We had two converts in my parish in the last 2 years and about 5 or 6 deaths...so that means a loss of 3 or 4 even though there was "growth" by 2 folks converting.

Axios:

Thanks for the data. It is sobering to say the least.

Fr. Elias:

I've got to agree with Coalesco in answer to your question. I believe that we fail because we approach our life here as churches through the perspective of otherworldliness alone. In other words, we spend lots of time--and we should--on Liturgy and formation, but we fail to get involved with each other and with those in need in this world, too. If you would permit me to say that we have our orthodoxy down pat, but miss out on orthopraxy in the daily living out of what we believe. We do need to become multi-lingual. Maybe we need to start Spanish language classes in our parishes for our own people. If we would welcome the stranger, we might have to do it in another language than our own. We've all got a lot of vertical relationship going with God, but often fail to remember that we've got to build up the community that is the Body of Christ, not only around us, but reaching out to ever expand it by drawing in others.

I have been privileged to work with many communities through my professional work. Many of the Protestant communities that have the greatest success in building up their membership have people who volunteer to welcome new people. How many of our parishes do that? I won't even speak for you, my brothers, but I have lived in Latin parishes for over 50 years and have only once been welcomed as a new member. Usually after I register the only communication I have received from anyone is the question of how much they can expect in terms of dollars. Many have been closed to new members having any leadership or service roles, too: one can't teach or help with any ministerial role--some even close their choirs.

Alex:

My own experience parallels yours. Kids are afraid of their identity and of being labeled. Not only that, but if they are in public schools there is a great pressure to adopt views that the mass culture is espousing. And the Catholic Church has taken a beating in these supposedly "neutral" classrooms for her stands on so many sexually related topics. Ever since Humanae Vitae in 1968, the Church has been a lightening rod for cultural attack. (I remember a Pope Paul doll offered in my university newspaper right after the encyclical came out: the doll dispensed the pill on its tongue like we received the Eucharist at that time.)

My brothers ansd sisters:

We have a long journey ahead. It's uphill. But the Lord Jesus is still in charge. I believe that like the persecution of the Russian Orthodox Church in the last century, we are headed toward a period of purification in western cultures that will demand that each of us stand up and be counted. We've also got to begin to see our brothers and sisters as those we need to pick up and support--much like Simon helped carry Christ's Cross. We've got to be that to each other, whether in our parishes, on this forum, or wherever we find ourselves and see someone in need of solid word and example.

Christ is in our midst! He is and always will be!

BOB

P.S.: And thank Him for this last reminder that we greet each other with!

Yours is a good point. In my west Georgia First United Methodist church we have an enormous Hispanic population. They have their own chapel with their own services and their own pastor. Although they are technically part of our church, we almost never interact with them at any level whatsoever. I was born and raised in this very same parish, and I remember but one service with the Hispanics, about a year ago. The only time I see them is when they are entering or leaving their services, which occur at the same time as our own. However, their numbers are astounding. One of my grandmother's friends, another (Anglo-American) parishioner at our church asked why in the world these Hispanics weren't Catholic. Luckily, the (only) Catholic parish in town has the largest Hispanic group of all the churches in this neck of the woods, but I'd still venture to say that about 35% to 40% of the Hispanics in our area are not practicing Catholics.

It is definitely a problem. In a way, I want to get mad with my parish for "stealing" these Catholics, but I realize that we are not pressuring them to convert, but only welcoming them with open arms. To the Catholic parish's credit, they seem to be doing this too, but in our church the Hispanics have a very "Baptisty" service anyway, much different from our Anglo-American semi-liturgical services, and that attracts them in droves ISTM.

Logos Teen

A question to ask is when is the last time a Ruthenian Greek Catholic Bishop gave instruction and direction to the laity on Evagelization?

What office was set up to help the laity? What advisory board made up of priest was established to direct the laity in their day to day activities of Evagelization?

What Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church has established a long term door to door outreach program? What Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church has published a comprehesive official guide book for Evagelization?

What funding has the Bishops given the Laity to assist in this Evagelization efforts that was spelled out above?

The Bishops were given the power by God to run the Church or so the Bible tells me so... But, the only thing I have seen them do lately is shuffle bad priest, close churches/schools, change the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom to fit there liturgical whims (there should be copyright issues that force the Greek Catholic Church to change the name of the liturgy since it will no longer be the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chry.), and ask for more money.

Umm, Axios our numbers are declining? I would never had guessed!



The only real Lay Evangelization effort I have seen coming out of the Ruthenian Greek Church is from John V. who set up this forum. God bless him for that because if we did not have this media to grip and complain about the Church we might just drop out all together.

Sam,

Yes there is. The Latin Church is growing by 20% but ONLY and I stress this ONLY from Mexican immigrants.

Going back to my OLD thesis regarding Colleen�s Book "The New Faithful...� You might note that Traditional Catholic Churches (SSPX, etc...) are modestly growing and so are Orthodox - Orthodox Churches like the ROCOR. Meanwhile, liberal Protestant Churches like the Methodist are declining while Conservative Churches like the Evangelical Churches are growing. Do your own research because I know my facts are correct.

Umm, Holy Spirit sending us a message?

[QUOTE]] When is the last time a Ruthenian Greek Catholic Bishop gave instruction and direction to the laity on Evangelization? etc etc etc-
[/QUOTE

Hmmm-Well I've been around for a while and uh- I don't recall hearing any more than the phrase "We must evangelize!" Oh- and add to that "It is the responsibility of the Laity to evangelize."

Are you saying this isn't working in Your parish, Johan?

Sam

Ohhhh

Sam

"Yes there is. The Latin Church is growing by 20% but ONLY and I stress this ONLY from Mexican immigrants. "

I would be inclined to disagree with this statement. I know for a fact that every parish in Topeka has a large group of converts received into the Church every Easter. And not all of them are just folks married to a Catholic husband or wife. My brother-in-law and his six brothers all converted to Catholicism and some of their wives converted too (my sister being one). There have also been some well know people who have converted...Senator Sam Brownback from Kansas comes to mind. Churches are still packed for Masses, the problem is not enough priests to staff our parishes. Don

I know I am right about this:

Statistics: http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

http://www.thearda.com/test_main.asp?Show=RCMS2000

http://www.nccbuscc.org/hispanicaffairs/enmarcha/summer01.htm#4


I know my statistics are correct but if you wish to check them, go ahead.

Dear Friends,

The fact is that U.S. Catholicism is becoming more Hispanic and ethnic than otherwise.

As one commentator said, this will mean that the Virgin Mary and devotion to her will become front and centre in the U.S. in future.

And that is great!

Alex

Alex,

Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that more Catholics are coming to this country. But I feel that the Church should be doing so much more in the areas of Evangelization. This reminds me of a Latin Nun I meet who said, "since Vatican II we do not evangelize anymore." Perhaps that Nun was correct. After all one great order that use to evangelize to Jews shut down referring to Cardinal Kaspers remark that evangelization to Jews was not necessary. Oh My!

Dear Johan,

Yes, of course we need to do more evangelization.

That word, when I hear it, does conjure up images of evangelicals on street corners, and frankly, I find that approach overly simplistic and a turn-off.

We need to be welcoming to other people and make the Gospel available to them etc.

We need to answer their questions and make literature available to them and to be there as guides and supports on their journey.

That requires time and patience.

I'm glad the two of us have an abundance of both!

We don't evangelize the Jews by telling them to dump their heritage or that they are evil in God's sight for not being Christians etc.

We evangelize them by loving and accepting them for who they are, already God's Chosen People, and the vehicle by which Christ was brought to us.

It is in the brightness and warmth of our love for them that God will draw them closer to Himself.

Alex

Alex,

This is where you and I differ. I believe evangelization includes everything we can possibly do. This includes yelling from street corner, "Jesus Saves!" Of course this also includes practing what we preach. Orthodoxy is a lifestyle that has to be lived.

In the Midwest at least Don is absolutely correct. While the Hispanic population is growing, there is also a steady stream of conversions to Catholicism. As Don mentioned our senator Sam Brownback quitely converted this year along with his family and was sponsored by Senator Rick Santorum.

A friend of mine at a Latin parish in Kansas City who is the DRE had 30+ received into the Church at Easter Vigil this year from RCIA in a moderate-sized parish. Most of these were American converts and she even had one Polish immigrant family who was unchurched upon immigrating to the area.

The Gallup Organization did some work in the 1990's and found thae Catholic Church the most "static" churches in the United States. In other words it had the smallest proportion of converts and also the smallest proportion of people who were raised in that church but have left. it also said that all of the net growth is from immigration.

I do think the Catholic Church needs to consult with sociiologial experts as it considers its situation. Many here have noted the need to some understanding of the situation of Hispanic Americna Catholics. Alternatively, Johan mentions a recent book which considered (without noting it or appearently realizing it) white, college educated Catholics -- a definate minority of the Catholics.

Axios

As Christians we are called to witness to the Gospel. Evangelization need not be limited to proseltyzing for converts directly. Living by example is also important. Our Byzantine Church offers the Bethany Ministry program, designed for the faithful to minister to the sick, people in trouble, the elderly, and shut-ins. The training program for this can be instructor led or self-taught, and need not require lots of preparation time. I am personally implementing its content whenever I can, and it makes it possible for me to encounter lives that I might not otherwise come in contact with, and to be an occasion of witness.

So, I'd say the Church IS making it possible for efforts in evangelization to occur. (Information about the Bethany program has also appeared in church newsletters as well as "Orthodox Herald".)

Hey, we are pretty conservative compared to some other groups (Presbies, Episcopalians, etc.)

Logos Teen

Teen,

Are you a Methodist?

I'm with you all the way

Forgive me but I haven't heard of this before. I'd like to know more about the Bethany Ministry program. If Anyone can provide more info I'd appreciate it.

Michael

Ja, technically. I haven't converted to Catholicism yet.

Logos Teen

Teen,

What are you waiting for?

Dear Johan,

I don't disagree that "Jesus Saves."

We disagree on methodology.

I'm for anything that DOESN'T turn people off.

If you like to compare lists of converts with me, let me know

Alex