www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Special Report from the 'Onion Dome'

I thought the alllusion would not be mistaken as a guns don't kill argument.

Well, it may be a little lacking by contemporary standards, but the development of the Gregorian calendar represents excellent science; it represents the very birth of science in the modern understanding of the term.

That's a different story. I understand that some like to strain the canons of Nicea to maintain a Typicon with a simple periodicity. That posture, however, strikes others as too much of an innovation.

Dear Incognitus,

My Church is divided along calendar lines, and that is a shame.

The idea of dying for the Old Calendar - let me say that in my Church no one would do that.

They would resist to the death, perhaps, the idea of the New (Latin,Polish) calendar, but it would have no further spiritual significance beyond that.

The fact of the Old Calendar is used as a convenient excuse for not attending church and we can heap all sorts of condemnations on those who do this.

The issues of great holiness under the Old Calendar and the like - are Byzantine Catholics, I mean the Administrator and many here who follow the Western Paschalion, are they any less holy or less Christian because they don't follow the Old Calendar?

But apart from the traditional Old Calendarist nonsense that I've read here, the fact is that there is only one person I know who would use a phrase as you have . . .

I've discovered your secret identity, Incognitus!

But, don't worry, it is safe with me.

So long!

Alex

Dear incognitus,

XB!

Can you please elaborate on how the Gregorian calendar is "completely unsuited to our Typicon"?

Thank you.

Tony

Alex asks "are Byzantine Catholics, I mean the Administrator and many here who follow the Western Paschalion, are they any less holy or less Christian because they don't follow the Old Calendar?" - I had to read this twice before realizing that Alex is probably referring to the Administrator of the web site, not to the Administrator of a parish.
But anyway, the answer is the same: I have no way of knowing. It might be more interesting to ask various people who use the Gregorian Calendar if they have thought the matter through, and if they themselves would ascribe outstanding holiness to the Gregorian Calendar - and, if so, on what basis.

Sorry, everyone, the computer has once again interfered with my thought processes!
Tony asks for specifics as to how the Gregorian Calendar causes problems for the Typicon. A fair and sensible question: here are some answers.
1) In the "compromise version" of the Gregorian Calendar as used in the Church of Greece and elsewhere in the Orthodox world, it can (and frequently does) happen that between the end of the Sundays after Pentecost and the beginning of the Triodion there are some "extra" Sundays, which are simply not provided for in the Church Calendar at all. [I suppose we could invent the Sunday of Jonah and the Whale, or something similar.]
2) Check the feast of Saint George the Great Martyr in the Menaion, and imagine yourself trying to chant some of this material during Great Lent!
3) In years when Pascha is late, we find that either the Fast of the Apostles falls out completely, or one is required to fast during the week immediately after Pentecost, when the Typicon prescribes that there should be no fasting whatever.

No doubt one could jury-rig some sort of response to these problems (without necessarily involving Jonah and the Whale!); since the Gregorian Calendar is itself a remarkable example of jury-rigging that might even be appropriate. But what's the point? Will such things sanctify anybody?
Dear Alex - the last person claiming to have guessed at my secret identity (I'm really Jimmy Olsen) was Father Michael Sopoliga of Florida - whom I do not have the pleasure of knowing at all and who would be quite unlikely to recognize me under any circumstances that come to mind.
Christ is Risen!
Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

I had to read your posts twice as well . . .

The rays of Old Calendar holiness emanating from your words were positively blinding . . .

And there's only ONE Administrator in my life!!

Perhaps he could speak up here sometime soon on this topic?

God bless you, "Incognitus" (Now I feel a bit like Sherlock Holmes for having found you out - but I pledge to keep it to myself. I won't even tell Anhelyna . . . ).

Alex

Dear Incognitus,

What threw me was when some who had already found you out told me that I would kick myself when I found out who you were . . .

And they were right . . .

But it was something you said that I've heard before that gave you away, quite by accident.

I have a memory for idiosyncracies - having a few myself . . .

I don't know about the Jimmy Olsen thing, but I'd consider you a "super man."

But I would recognize you all right.

And unlike the good Father you mentioned, I like you . . .

Alex

incognitus,

Perhaps I am misunderstanding when you are writing "Gregorian Calendar." Are you not referring to Western Paschalion perhaps? Is that what you mean by "compromise version"? That is rather different from the Gregorian calendar itself.

It is my understanding that if one follows the Gregorian calendar fully, not mixed as does the OCA and GOA, for instance, there is no unforseen collision. The Synodal Typikon ("Russian" Sabbaite of September 1896) provides for the feast of the Great-Martyr George falling as early as Great Friday. After the main entry for April 23rd there follows "Ukaz o velikom mučenic�i Georgij. Načinajetsja ot dne velikaho pjatka, i voschodit do četvertka 5-ja ned�ili po Pasc�i." Then gives clear directions if it falls from Great Friday to Pascha. Does The Typikon you are consulting not provide for that?

Tony

Alex,

Isn�t your wife the �ONE Administrator� in your life? After Christ, of course!

--

The Gregorian Calendar is simply the Julian Calendar with adjustments to make it more accurate. Both are secular calendars and neither rises to the level of doctrine. It is the Church herself which has sanctified time.

Admin

Dear Administrator,

Well, my wife isn't as nice and even-handed as you sometimes . . .

And to refer to her as an "administrator" would suggest that she would be open to negotiation once in a while . . .

Excellent response to Incognitus . . .

Hopefully he knows when a battle doesn't have a chance of ending in a victory!

God bless,

Alex

The Christian battle itself doesn't have a chance of ending in victory - but then again, Christ has given us victory already, so there's nothing to worry about!

Christ is Risen!

Incognitus

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Mr. Administrator!

I bow to you...

"It is the Church herself which has sanctified time."

And with the Church we are always in Kairos, not Chronos!

Although I remain firmly convinced that the Churches should have left the calenders ALONE...I remain equally firmly convinced that as matters now stand, most of those who may feel this way in their hearts will not have the opportunity of living a liturgical life that way, because they belong to a jurisdiction which is New Calendar.

They fast, pray, pledge, worship, and observe the Feasts of the Church with joy in their hearts! It may be tinged wih some regret for what they do not have, what is jurisdictionally denied to them, but it should not be tinged with guilt for what they cannot help. Sadly, those who understand the calendar issue are not, and will not be a plurality, not enough to force a vote for change. It isn't politics, where such can happen. The best (regret tinged with cynicism) is that by telling Americans they can get after-Christmas shopping specials if they change back you might get a bit of an influence, an impetus for change...until someone remembers this means they can't get blind drunk on New Year's Eve...

No...best to leave the calendar issue where it belongs...OFF the internet fora, where it is discussed ad nauseum, and in prayer, prayer that it can be resolved, properly back where it belongs, in such a way that no fasts are lost, no feasts are compromised, and all Christianity can celebrate together, without blame.

Remember this...I stand firmly convinced that the Julian calendar is the calendar for the Churches to use. But that does not mean I think any the less of those who do NOT use it. I ~WILL~ think the less of you when you tell me you will not use it because it is too much trouble to go to church on those days (as opposed to others). When it matters to you in your heart, when Christ is FIRST IN IMPORTANCE, you will be in Church. Yes, even if it means...GASP...you take VACATION DAYS for Feast Days. When it means THAT much to you, you will...OLD CALENDAR, NEW CALENDAR, MARTIAN CALENDAR...What matters is your heart. You cannot necessarily help your jurisdiction, but do not condemn others to justify your personal sloth, nor to praise your zeal.

Gaudior, climbing DOWN from the soapbox and running for cover

For me the tragedy of this is that it turns into a battle. I was really hoping to engage in some productive discussion about this matter. I quoted a source that is readily verifiable and was hoping to have a response in-kind.

Dear Tony,

You were hoping to engage in productive dialogue?

What about me? My thread which was posted for light humour got hijacked into anger and divisiveness!!!

Is outrage!!!

In Christ,
Alice

I think that I will be taking a little break from the forum because of all the anger on many of the threads lately, which saddens me greatly. Did we not just bask in the glow of love and spiritual joy of Pascha???? Thank God my priest is starting his weekly supplication services tomorrow...maybe Bright Week left us all a little bit unleashed in our spiritual lives?

In Christ,
Alice