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#200977 07/30/02 01:19 PM
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Dear Friends,

O.K., this is a question I've always wanted to ask, but was afraid to . . .

What is the white cap that the Pope wears, as do the Cardinals and other Latin prelates?

What is its meaning? Is it descended from Judaism?

Alex

#200978 07/30/02 01:56 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Friends,

O.K., this is a question I've always wanted to ask, but was afraid to . . .

What is the white cap that the Pope wears, as do the Cardinals and other Latin prelates?

What is its meaning? Is it descended from Judaism?

Alex


Alex,

it's a zuchetto derived from the Italian zucca, "pumpkin". I imagine it does resemble a yarmulke(sp?), but there are practical uses for it development. In times past when all clerics received tonsure by shaving the head or leaving a ring of hair, the zuchetto was used as a head covering, either to keep the head warm in the winter or protected from the sun in the summer. Usually only prelates or abbots now wear them. Of course color denotes rank- white for the pope, scarlet for cardinals, purple for bishops, black for abbots.

John

[ 07-30-2002: Message edited by: bisantino ]

#200979 07/30/02 02:11 PM
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Dear John,

Thanks very much!

Is there a liturgical function in terms of worship for the zucchetto?

Why are there moments in a Papal Mass, for example, when it is taken off His Holiness?

Alex

#200980 07/30/02 04:58 PM
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Taken off for the Anaphora?

#200981 07/30/02 05:28 PM
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ABBOTS OF THE NORBERTINE ORDER ALSO WEAR WHITE ZUCCHETTOS.

#200982 07/30/02 05:41 PM
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Dear Alex:

I am sorry to tell you this now because it could have become useful to your meeting with his Holiness.

There is an old tradition where a person meeting the Pope can present him with a new Zucchetto and the Pope will exchange it for the one he is currently wearing.

If you go to the papal outfitters [Gamarelis?] in Rome they will sell you the exact type that the Pope likes to wear.

Just a Papal tidbit.


defreitas

#200983 07/30/02 06:36 PM
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Dear Alex:

Bishops, up to the Pope, are allowed to wear the zucchetto when celebrating the Mass, but are required to remove the same during the Canon, i.e., consecration.

Also, a Bishop may not wear his zucchetto when giving benediction.

All others may not wear their zucchettos during Mass WITHOUT papal dispensation.


bisantino:

I would prefer to designate the color for the Cardinals' zucchetto as RED. Scarlet accepts a range of colors to include reddish-orange, which is not entirely proper for the red zuchetto of Cardinals. (The color SCARLET further connotes, in literature, the color of sinfulness!)

Ditto for the Bishops' zucchetto: it is properly designateed as VIOLET, although you might be correct to say it is purple.

Laus Tibi:

Prelates and other ecclesiastics such as abbots, wear BLACK, unless a special privilege to wear violet is granted.

The Norbertine Order must have been granted a special Papal permission to wear their zucchettos in WHITE!? Nevertheless, a Cardinal who belongs to this Order is required to wear a RED zucchetto.


AmdG

[ 07-30-2002: Message edited by: Amado Guerrero ]

[ 07-30-2002: Message edited by: Amado Guerrero ]

#200984 07/30/02 06:51 PM
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The papal zuchetti are sold for around US $65, last I heard.

In the Syrian tradition, there is a skullcap that is black and made of seven triangular pieces...magic number three from another post, plus seven, for the seven-fold priesthood. Priests and deacons wear this hat. Among the Arabs, it is a skullcap, while among the Indians, it is a cylindrical hat, but with the seven pieced cap incorporated at the top of the "cylinder". It is always worn when priests and deacons are in cassock, whether at liturgy or not.

#200985 07/30/02 07:09 PM
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Dear De Freitas,

Actually, I have a white yarmulka, but I don't think the Pope would have "traded with me . . ."

I'll remember that when I go to Rome for a papal audience on behalf of the government next spring!

Alex

#200986 07/30/02 07:11 PM
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Dear Bisantino,

If you're so "Bisantino" how come you know so much about this subject? smile

Why is the cap removed for the consecration and the blessing?

I'm asking what the religious significance of the cap or other headgear, such as Mor Ephrem has described, is liturgically?

What does it do apart from protect the tonsure?

A Jewish friend once told me the yarmulka is there to indicate a "separation" between God and humanity (?).

Alex

#200987 07/30/02 07:24 PM
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Alex asked:

"Is it (the zucchetto=skullcap) descended from Judaism?"

Some accounts tracing the origins of the Roman Rite tend to show elements of Jewish religious customs incorporated into its primitive form, i.e., as practiced during the early days of Christianity, although the wearing of the Catholic's zucchetto by ecclesiastics became customary only in the 13th century.

It might be safe to assume that the wearing of the "yarmulke" was one of the Jewish customs adopted by the early converts to Christianity since it was only instituted in Talmudic times (approximately the second century CE).

In Judaism, especially to the Orthodox and Conservative Jews, wearing of a head covering (yarmulke, yarmulka, skullcap, or kippah)for men was/is an indication for respect and fear of God.

Some Jewish historians liken it to the "High Priest" who wore a hat to remind him something was always between him and God. Thus, wearing a yarmulke, to the Jews, makes them all like the high priest and turns them into a "holy nation."

The head covering is also a sign of humility for Jewish men, acknowledging what's "above" (God).


AmdG

#200988 07/30/02 07:31 PM
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Dear Amado,

And if you're so Catholic, how come you know so much about Judaism? smile

Thanks - your post unifies much research into one coherent whole!

Alex

#200989 07/30/02 07:45 PM
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Dear Alex:

Because Jesus WAS a Jew!? And Mary, and Joseph, and.....


AmdG

#200990 07/30/02 07:55 PM
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Dear Amado,

In that case, Ba shana haba Bi-Yerooshalayim!

Shalom Aleichem!

Alex

#200991 07/30/02 08:04 PM
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Dear Alex:

Or, as Rome's Chief Rabbi, Israel Zolli, retorted when asked why he and his wife converted to Catholicism right after World War II and the Holocaust: because a Christian is a "completed Jew!"


AmdG

#200992 07/30/02 08:08 PM
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Dear Amado,

I understand that Israel Zolli is up for a possible Canonization.

That would make him a completed Christian!

Alex

#200993 07/30/02 08:27 PM
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Dear Alex:

I did not know that!

It would be beautiful as Zolli will join the devout Carmelite nun, St. Edith Stein, as the only Jewish converts thus canonized. (Are there others?)


AmdG

#200994 07/30/02 08:30 PM
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Dear Amado,
You are correct that a Norbertine Cardinal must wear a red zuc, however, if he is a Cardinal technically he is no longer a member of the order. I'm not sure about the special permission for Norbertine abbots wearing white zucs since the Norbertine habbit pre-dates the modern papal dress. When I was a Norbertine novice I remember people always used to say to us "you dress like the Pope" and we would say "no, the Pope dresses like us". A Norbertine abbot dresses exactly like the Pope except for the white scapular of the order. I bet a Norbertine Abbot can cause quite a stir strolling about the streets of Rome.

#200995 07/30/02 08:35 PM
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Dear Laus Tibi,

The Pope dresses like us?

This reminds me of what our ancestors used to say when they first came into union with Rome.

When asked why the Pope was being commemorated in their Churches, our Eastern Catholic ancestors said, "The Pope has joined the Orthodox Church!"

Alex

#200996 07/30/02 09:02 PM
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Dear LTC:

Don't you think an Abbot of the Norbertine Order would still belong to this Order even if he was made a Cardinal?

His Eminence, Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J., is still a Jesuit, to me at least.


AmdG

#200997 07/30/02 09:12 PM
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Dear Alex:

Lucky them!

I have been trying hard to be a "completed Christian" all my life.

And, lucky you as you are always more than a step ahead of us in "completing" your Christian life, having been basking under the sun with His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, for a week in Toronto.


AmdG

#200998 07/30/02 10:27 PM
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Latin priests can also wear a black zuchetto. Priests in religious orders with white habits (ie Norbertines, Dominicans) can wear a white zuchetto.

I do not know if these rules were modified after Vatican II.

In Iesu et Maria,
Justin


The "Tridentine" Mass..the most beautiful thing this side of heaven.
#200999 07/30/02 10:37 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Bisantino

If you're so "Bisantino" how come you know so much about this subject? smile

Why is the cap removed for the consecration and the blessing?

I'm asking what the religious significance of the cap or other headgear, such as Mor Ephrem has described, is liturgically?

What does it do apart from protect the tonsure?

A Jewish friend once told me the yarmulka is there to indicate a "separation" between God and humanity (?).

Alex

Alex,

It wasn't too long ago that our eparchs wore the zuc as well.

As to its removal if must be for the same reason that all head coverings are removed during the anaphora. I don't know the official reason.

I don't know of any other reason other than its practicality for its use. For its continued use it must be to denote rank?

And yes, hermano Amado and Laus, the Norbertines use the white zuc, but is it watered silk like the pope's? biggrin

Once while attending a pilgrimage at Holy Resurrection Monastery, Norbertines from St Michael's were in attendance including the abbot. My 6 year old son asked if that man (the abbot) was the pope.

John

[ 07-30-2002: Message edited by: bisantino ]

#201000 07/30/02 10:48 PM
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Dear Amado,
Most religious priests do retain a certain close affiliation with the Order they belonged to, but technically when they become Bishops or Cardinals they no longer belong to the Order, and the Pope grants them a dispensation from their vow of poverty(because as a Bishop they must own property in their name).

#201001 07/31/02 12:46 AM
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John,

I believe silk is/was a priveldged material for Latin clerics. Only certain clerics can/could wear silk. smile

In Iesu et Maria,
Justin


The "Tridentine" Mass..the most beautiful thing this side of heaven.
#201002 07/31/02 07:04 PM
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For that matter, what is the liturgical regulations for wearing a Klobuk with or without the veil for Diving Liturgy? For instance, I believe a hierarch (or priest/monk) may wear his klobuk at all times except when venerating an icon and during the liturgy. Anyone know the rule? Does it apply to all clerics or just the priest at the Alter? For instance, if a cantor were granted permission to wear a klobuk, when would he remove it? Please enlighten.

Dmitri

#201003 07/31/02 07:35 PM
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Here's a link to a page describing what the OCA practice is and this is, for the most part, the practice that I've seen in the Ukrainian Catholic Church when clerics wear headcoverings (which is rare.) Head Covering [holy-trinity.org]

Also, it is my understanding that the (Slavic style) hat worn by clerics (sometimes described as a "stovepipe" hat) is known as the Kamilavka. This can be worn by any priest. I've been told by a Ukrainian Orthodox priest that for a deacon to wear it, it should be bestowed by one's hierarch. I'm not sure what the procedure is in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. When the veil is added, which is a purely monastic garment, it is then known as a Klobuk.

Fr. Deacon James

#201004 08/06/02 02:39 AM
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Whatever happened to Orthodox Catholic? I have not noticed him posting here of late.I do pray that he is well.

#201005 08/06/02 02:17 PM
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Dear Friend,

I'm fine so far, but was on a long weekend.

I find that I must read more to get more educated on matters liturgical, scriptural etc. to keep up with you fellows here.

God bless,

Alex

#201006 08/06/02 03:08 PM
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In the pre-Vatican II days, bishops and cardinals of old religious orders were permited to wear vestments in the colors of their orders. A Dominican bishop wore white (he really looked like the Pope, except for the purple zuccetto), a Dominican Cardinal wore black and white. A Franciscan cardinal wore grey. A Carmelite bishop I knew wore a brown cassock, with white pipping. They don't loose the affiliation with the order, even though they take a vow of poverty.

#201007 08/06/02 04:09 PM
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Dear Mike,

A vow of poverty?

And how did they manage to be faithful to that, given all the concern with religious fashion statements? smile

Alex

#201008 08/06/02 06:17 PM
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Aaaaaargh

Alex, after WYD how could you smile

By the way did you not mamage to acquire one as a souvenir ? to go with the oters we have heard about and the ones we have not :p

[ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

#201009 08/06/02 06:21 PM
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Dear Angela,

I said that WYD INSPIRED me spiritually.

At no time did I say it killed the mischievious in me . . . smile

I didn't get a zuchetta. But I do plan on going to Rome and getting an audience with you-know-who.

If I'm successful, it may just be the first time I'll ever be able to "put a cap on" anything.

Alex

#201010 08/08/02 02:41 PM
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To all those who may be a bit worried identifying the Pope by color, Church authorities directed those clerics who may be in Rome (Maybe in the Vatican only Im not quite sure) to use a none white vestment. So a Dominican may have to use the black one when in Rome.

Some Bishops in countries with a hotter temperature may wear like the Pope but would wear the purple (red if a cardinal) zucchetto and would have purple (again red if a cardinal) trimmings and/or buttons. Their clerics instead of the usual black may also wear white.

Dont worry, the Pope's head will always be white when His Holiness is around smile And those who are invited to a Papal event are instucted what to wear anyways.

There are some who make a wrong kind of zucchetto where it really looks like the one worn by Jews. A zucchetto is a skull cap, it is made in such a way that it "grasps" the head of the wearer. Poor clerics wink

I guess thats my share.

#201011 08/08/02 02:46 PM
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Dear Friend,

Are these issues what led you to simply be "Hooded?" smile

Alex

#201012 08/10/02 07:04 AM
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Yeah a hood would be more gentle than a skull cap.
smile

By the way, I said that The Pope's head will always be white when His Holiness is around... that was only about the zucchetto.

When it comes to miters, The Pope will be wearing a gold one I think and some other Liturgical color while the rest of the bishops would be wearing white. I read something about it but the Eastern Bishops wear some exquisite gold miter during Papal events but mostly white. Im not quite sure if the directive is also effective for the Eastern Catholics.

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