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Dec 29th, 2019
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"The populations subject to Byzantium would continue to parade heretical views as a label
for their grievances. But the main effort of heresy, at least, had failed_so it seemed. Its object, the undoing of a united Catholic
civilization, had been missed."
HMMMM....??
Dan Lauffer
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Belloc was undoubtedly a RC chauvinist and a product of his time and place. While I differ with him on the Eastern Church, much of what he wrote about Islam way back in 1936 was prophetic. Many Eastern Christians have heroically resisted the errors of Mohammed and continue to do so. http://rumkatkilise.org/constantineXI.htm http://rumkatkilise.org/statusconstantineXI.htm In our own time, the Catholic League has disgraced themselves by alligning with the Council on American Islamic Relations in an all-out effort to destroy the career and livelihood of an Orthodox brother in Christ, James George Jatras: http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/jatras.htm
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Greeks and Turks: divided by religion but united by "football." Thank God, relationships between Greeks and Turks have palpably improved in the last few years, especially among the young. www.megasoccer.com/story/world/World/home/7087.html [ megasoccer.com] Abdur
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It's great to be able to share a game of football...
...and even better to share the Gospel.
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Dan, I had had trouble getting back into EWTN to re-read Belloc (who, I don't doubt to be a chauvinist). But the context makes the meaning of the quote a little different than might seem from your post. The idea, ISTM, is that Orthodox-Catholic unity and presence throughout "civilization" was maintained, more or less, against the post-Nicean Christological disputes arising among non-Greek peoples that were subject to the Emperor at Constantinople. He connects these disputes to the politics of resitance to Byzantine imperialism. Along these lines, here's a interesting portion of a review by Jill Kamil of the book: Two Thousand Years of Coptic Christianity, Otto F A Meinardus (Cairo: American University in Cairo Press, 1999). ...in this latest work, he has compiled the definitive history of the Coptic church, one that will remain the standard work on the subject for many years to come. It is therefore extremely unfortunate to find the author presenting a highly biased account of certain key episodes in that history... Thus, many Copts will undoubtedly take offence when they discover that in the section of Chapter 2 devoted to "The Theological Contributions of the See of Alexandria", the most heroic period of Coptic history is repeatedly referred to as a "tragic schism." The author uses the word twice, on pages 9 and 39, to describe the period when Egyptian Christians stood united against the imperial power of Byzantium, firm in their adherence to the creed formulated in the first and greatest of the church councils, and refused to endorse the revisionist doctrine promoted by the Council of Chalcedon. The Council's decision may have been a tragedy for the Byzantine Empire, but hardly for Egypt. Henceforth, the main centre of learning for Egyptian Christianity was the monastery of Saint Macarius in Wadi Al-Natrun. No longer politically or spiritually tied to Constantinople, its theologians began to write more in Coptic and less in Greek. Coptic art also enjoyed an original and autonomous development at this period... The passage is still wretchedly dismissive of the Oriental Orthodox (not to mention the civilizations of India, China, etc.). Maybe that's what your HMMMMMM was about? djs [ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: djs ]
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Originally posted by djs:
Dan,
I had had trouble getting back into EWTN to re-read Belloc (who, I don't doubt to be a chauvinist).
[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: djs ] He's also been largely superseded as an historian because of his lack of objectivity, not to mention his rather broad anti-semitism.
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Dear Friends,
The Battle of Vienna was, in fact, won largely due to the military prowess in cannon warfare of Yuri Kulchitsky, a Ukrainian Orthodox!
Kulchitsky came from the great Kulchitsky Kozak family and St Innocent Kulchitsky, Bishop of Tobilsk/Tobolsk in Siberia was his relation.
Yuri Kulchitsky was pressed into service on the ramparts and his keen knowledge of cannon placement etc. cut the Turkish formations as they advanced on the city.
He was given noble title by the Polish King and a charter to sell coffee - the Vienna coffee shops derive from his original shop.
He is honoured in Vienna and his famous phrase, "How are things, dearheart?" comes from him.
But the Austrian government is perhaps remiss in its understanding of Kulchitsky's nationality.
At a hotel coffee-house in London, the story of Kulchitsky was written up on the door. He was called an "Armenian."
When I contacted the manager about it, he said that's the info he received from the Austrian Embassy!
Alex
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Dear Stuart,
"Broad antisemitism"
I guess he just has an aversion for anyone from the East!
Alex
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If I'm not mistaken, Ukie Cossacks played a very important role at the battle of Vienna. Sobiesky prefered the cossacks more than his hussars because he knew that the Turks feared and respected the cossacks.
Lauro
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Dear Ipreima,
Yes, King Sobieski in fact preferred the Kozaks for the same reason that Kulchitsky became the hero of Vienna.
The Kozaks were the foremost experts on cannon warfare. Some historical commentators even go so far as to say it is a myth they were the great horsemen of history, but that their expertise was more technical - with gunpowder and as crack-shots.
King Sobieski was no fool and he realized the advanced cannon of the Turks would destroy his army.
He turned to the cannon experts he had under his control - and emerged victorious.
The cannon were to Vienna what the bow and arrow were to the Battle of Poitiers.
Alex
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Originally posted by Dave:
It's great to be able to share a game of football...
...and even better to share the Gospel. My mother's good friend is a Turk and an evangelical lay preacher. There is some growth of evangelical Christianity among diaspora Turks, but, for obvious reasons, the same cannot be said for Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Abdur
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Dear Traveler, Yes, but I've come across Orthodox Turks. They do complain about the unwillingness of some Greeks to take them seriously however. And even our former pastor once commented that "the Turks entered the Orthodox Church for no other reason but to try to destroy it." I think it's a question of that "nationalism" that Da Ortoman keeps going on about it (with me as a prime conspirator  ) that gets involved here. The Evangelical Christians are a Johnny-come-lately and they've no historical roots in the area that go back to the Turkish Yoke etc. That makes them a culturally and politically neutral religious statement for Turks wanting either mainstream or "old time" religion. God bless! Alex
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Well, Dave, battle of Vienna was of September 12th, not 11th! sincerely, subdeacon Peter
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Correct, Alex.
For the Turks, evangelical Christianity is not associated with historical ethnic antagonisms.
Also, it is scripture centered and Muslim Turks cannot accuse
them of practicing idolatry.
Abdur
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