www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Forgiving Mel Gibson

I would pity anyone that would have taken Mr. Caviezel's part in the movie. The horrors he had to endure were unbelievable.

What annoyed me though in the film, and many a Greek speaking person, was that Greek was neither written nor spoken. Greek was not shown in the sign on the cross stating 'King of the Jews', nor did Pontius Pilate speak in Greek. Now Greek had to be the language that Pilate used when he spoke to Jesus.

Zenovia

In addition, Ma'alula is the only Greek-Catholic parish in all the world where Aramaic is still in use for a notable part of the divine services. There's a nice audio-tape available of the "Funeral of Christ" service of Good Friday evening sung by the villagers in Aramaic using Byzantine chant (before anyone gets confused, please remember that "Byzantine chant" does not refer to the system of church singing of whatever one cares to call the place at the meething-point of Hungary, Slovakia and Ukraine). Very enjoyable!

One of the problems with keeping the language alive is that the Syrian government does not permit the teaching of Aramaic in the school in Ma'alula - don't ask me why; I don't know. In general I quite like Syria, but this bit of cultural repression is a black mark on Syria; we could all do a lot worse than to write the Syrian Embassy at the UN asking politely that this restriction be lifted, stressing the cultural importance of the survival of Aramaic as a living language, especially for Christians.

Meanwhile, a ritzy-glitzy hotel has been built adjacent to Mar Sarkis - deplorable in general but at least it shows that Damascus is conscious of the importance of Ma'alula and can be reminded that much of that importance comes from the language.

Sam: I was last in Lebanon for that canon law conference in Kashlik about 10 years ago, and managed to build a week in Damascus into my itinerary, including a day-trip to Mar Sarkis (in my case the attraction to Ma'alula was the connection with Saint Serge). As you gather, the visit turned out to be lovely and a valuable experience. Damascus is, well, Damascus - a beautiful city with remarkably hospitable people. I keep hoping to return someday before I die.

Zenovia - you are quite right; the blotting-out of Greek is one of the major weaknesses of that otherwise excellent film.

Abuna Sarkis (aka Fr. Serge)

Interesting. I had not even considered the idea. But, now that you mention it, it is obvious.

-- John

Zenovia,

There are many who wonder about koine greek not being spoken in the film. Lest we forget that ALL of the New Testament was written in koine greek (except possibly the Gospel According to St. Matthew which has been theorized to have been written in Aramaic.) So actually the whole movie should have been in koine greek as it was the lingua franca of the whole Mediterranean world thanks to Alexander the Great. And this allowed the spread of the Gospel throughout the region (when the fullness of time had come...)

I guess since Latin and Aramaic are dead languages (which after reading some of the exchanges, it turns out to not be true entirely) Mr. Gibson wanted to make a film that could be universal. Remember that originally he was dead set against subtitles. He wanted to rely on the images that were allusions to famous paintings and on our understanding of the Holy Scriptures.

The suggestion that he could have used people from Lebanon??? who spoke a dialect which is the closest to the dialect that Our Lord spoke is a great one. The plus would be that Mr. Caviezel's eyes would not have had to be altered. Sometimes they looked too artificial as his eye color is blue.

Not that I didn't "enjoy" his performance in the movie.

I do wonder whether this could be Syriac as the churches use classical languages and not strictly the vernacular (this being the case even where Syriacs of the Syriac Church speak Eastern neo-Aramaic vernaculars), and the Aramaic spoken in the Aramaic three of Reef Dimashq has no Fushah (classical) counterpart. But then again, Syriac has nothing to do with the Byzantine churches or what the Ma'loulans speak. So I wonder what is used exactly.



What we would call 'real' Byzantine chant, read using the Byzantine system of notation (unfortunately abandoned in favour of the Russian, polyphonic sound at least by the older Antiochian Orthodox and Melchite parishes in the diaspora), not exactly identical to Greek in sound, but still in the same musical sphere as opposed to sounding 'Slavic' (the modern, Western and Baroque-influenced form; I personally prefer the more ancient, Byzantine-sounding Slavic chants, from Znamenny to mediaeval Serbian). Still, I have to commend the Russians and their kin on one thing: the utilisation of massive basso profondo in effecting the ison, the essential substratum to any decent-sounding Byzantine chant.

No longer the case.

I understand that thanks to Professor George Risqallah, who helped to make possible that celebration of the Good Friday service in Aramaic, we have an Aramaic institute in Ma'loula, the foundation stone being laid about 2 years ago, I believe. I also understand that over the years prior, the professor had been teaching Aramaic classes in the village and had been strongly appealing to the government and advocating for concentrated efforts to preserve the language. And surprise of surprises, Father, if a Bahraini source referenced by the Ministry of Tourism is to be believed, it would appear that Mel Gibson was in fact over there studying for six months before filming his production. (Another source says he was considering a special screening at Jub`adeen.) Apparently, the success of his film has further galvanised the government into taking some initiative and dedicating funds to efforts at teaching the language.

On the matter of the language's dwindling state, what should be kept in mind is that the village preserved its language thus far largely due to its relative isolation. In addition, remember that the spoken language does not have a written form which limits its being able to be taught as effectively as doing so within the setting of the home and by growing up within the community, and is very limited in its vocabulary to be able to be used in a manner that is satisfactory within the context of modern speech for this century. The phenomenon of emigration from the villages towards the major cities, which goes back to before my generation, is also a major factor to be considered; their language has no use outside of the village community. From the other direction, I also hear that there are Arabic-speakers who immigrate to Ma'loula.

The older hotel with which I am familiar is what was called (if the name has been changed since new management took over) the Safeer, located at the summit. A relation of mine used to manage it.

As for the government, the ministry of tourism likes to boast of Ma'loula and its Aramaic; they know it has the potential to sell well.

Thank you, Father. One should have seen Damascus as it was decades ago, before the Barada river had dried up and when the city could boast of much greenery. Unfortunately for those who remember, what Damascus amounts to today is a jungle of concrete. But the old city and old neighbourhoods full of narrow streets, as well as the general atmosphere still encourage visits.

Samer

P.S. Father, if I may trouble you, I would enjoy listening to a copy of that Good Friday recording if you have it with you. May I request from you a copy on cassette? I would be much obliged; I would be happy to P.M. you with my snail mail address. I'll gladly reciprocate with a copy of the Liturgy chanted in Arabic by the Orthodox choir of Mt. Lebanon. I'll admit that Say'yidna George has the best Byzantine choir in this country, and Fr. Pandeleimon has a strong voice that nicely enhances the quality of the liturgical service.

And as you called to attention the difference between Slavic Byzantine and Levantine Byzantine chant, do know that this same Mt. Lebanon choir has recently completed the recording project of chanting the Divine Liturgy in English -- in authentic Byzantine tones, just like the Arabic. From the audio samples available on the following website, it seems to be a very successful accomplishment on their part, and I can add that this is exactly how Byzantine chant in English should sound in the churches of the diaspora that do not follow the Slavic traditions. You can listen to said samples (I recommend the Resurrectional Troparion and the Cherubic Hymn) and purchase a copy for yourself here:

http://www.kelfar.net/orthodoxiaradio/
http://www.kelfar.net/orthodoxiaradio/Catalog/CD_Eng1.html

Habibi - that tape is somewhere in the house; if I can find it I'll make you a copy (although you could probably get one sooner from Ma'alula or even from the Greek-Catholic Patriarchate in Damascus).

Reducing the Aramaic of Ma'alula to written form would be child's play to anyone who knows the alphabet and is patient enough to become acuainted with the specific vocabuly used in the village. The villagers were already proud of their language ten years ago; they are presumably even prouder of it now. For that matter, it's possible to write Aramaic with Arabic characters (Syrian Karshuni?), although learning the Aramaic alphabet shouldn't be that much of a challenge.

Delighted to hear of the Institute - you're motivating me to visit Damascus again (if so, perhaps we can meet).

Abuna Sarkis (aka Fr. Serge - by the way, I used to know an Armenian aquatic cat named Sarkis)

I just have to mention something here. Yesterday I heard a tape of the most amazing chanting...I'm picky you know. I was mesmorized by his voice. It seems the chanter is a Canadian and he chanted in English. The tape is called 'Byzantine Music In The New World'...Vespers Vol. I

I often wonder what billionare lebanese like Carlos Slim Helu (2nd richest man in the world, 44 billion $) and billionare armenians like Kirk Kekorian do with all their money. I know Kirk has paid for half the roads in Armenia but I still think there is more they could do such as promoting aramaic preservation in a more effective way. With the right amount of money and incentives languages are easy to preserve!
Perhaps lower taxes for aramaic speakers ...they could start a whole planned aramaic speaking city just like Tom Monoaghan is trying to do in Florida next to Ave Maria University.

Ancient Chants of the Eastern Orthodox Church sung in English for the first time by the world-renowned Mount Lebanon Choir. <--stunningly beautiful cd, the nearly whole reason I goto to Melkite/Antiochian Churches is to sing this music.

I also prefer the more ancient syriac/greek chant to any russian baroque/modern western types myself.

Although Corsican Chant is my favourite at the moment..no ones probably ever heard of that..especially in the authentic form with byzantine type tones.

Babara Ghazarians uncle was named Sarkis..do the aquatic cats make nice pets? most people dont believe that cats can ever like water.

Re: Corsican chant and Byzantine tones, you listen to Marcel Peres' Ensemble Organum, don't you? Good taste on your part. He enjoys employing the ison in Western chant to highlight the Eastern influence on the ancient forms of ecclesiastical music of various Western rites. His recordings of Mozarabic, ancient Roman chant, and Ambrosian are highly recommended. The last features Melchite Sr. Marie Keyrouz singing in high register. Simon Karas' student, Lycourgos Angelopoulos, also contributes his voice to these projects, and is consulted by Marcel during work on them.

My friend with the Armenian aquatic cats (he has two, but I've forgotten the other one's name) told me several things, the first of which is that many of his guests could not believe that these cats liked to swim until he filled his bathtub and allowed the guests to watch the cats paddling away.

They're quite beautiful cats. Unfortunately they're also very expensive, and I believe the exporting of them from Turkey is severely restricted. Whether they are available from Armenia nowadays, I don't know.

Constantinople has lots of stray cats, but I've never noticed the aquatic kind [there's a large fish market near the Greek-Catholic church, and it's possible to have one of several informal restaurants cook fresh fish to order. The cats hang around these places, earning their keep by discouraging the rodents, and meanwhile soliciting bits of fish from the customers].

Fr. Serge

I was going to start a whole post about Ensemble Organum soon..because they keep me confused..I can not figure out if they are authentic or have an "eastern agenda" and want to hellenize/syriacize latins like myself. I personally would welcome this hellenization...But I dont think enough other Roman Catholics would. This link is where I downloaded the Corsican Chant from..I think it's illegal but...why hasnt Marcel shut it down yet?

http://www.romancatholicism.org/chant/chant.htm

I would like to encourage breeding of van cats. It might be an extra source of income for me. My brother and I enjoy cats very much. I am sure I can find some here to start mating.

The most surprising thing to me is that stray cats exist in Constantinopoulos. I would think someone would eat them..

My mother has made jokes her whole life about singing in lebanon that all they ever sing is "ya habibi"...like american rock "baby baby I love you"...ehehehe

Strange page: reflects in a good way something of my musical taste, and it even has the link to the very same page I know of that offers audio samples of Serbian mediaeval. And if that weren't bizarre enough, there are my translations of Arabic Melchite Nativity chants tacked onto the fellow's site.

Music over here has deteriorated in much the same way as Greek music has: into the domain of vapid laika and talentless, music-video oriented nonsense, except I think the Lebanese have outdone the Greeks with Haifa Wehbe's 'Wawa'. What is termed music nowadays is exclusively about show right now.

Habeebee goes back a long way, but the word today is tossed about too frequently.

<I would think someone would eat them.>

If an anecdote of suspect veracity from Jerusalem demonstrates anything, they will sell well and make good, tasty sandwiches as long as no one asks what they're buying. Someone allegedly had to close up shop when the local cat population suddenly experienced a suspiciously sharp drop.

A Christoir - if you can really find authentic Lake Van aquatic cats and breed them true, prepare yourself to make money - the demand outstrips the supply

Fr. Serge