www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Muslims demand papal apology for crusades

Henry, You missed my point completely.

Dan, "the Church" did not send anyone into Constantinople in 1203. "The Church" under Innocent III called for a crusade in 1198 to capture Jerusalem. What happened next was under the direction of the French crusaders, the Venetians who supplied the fleet, and the Greek pretender-to-the-throne who met the crusaders in Zara and had the idea to go to Constantinople in the first place.

Constantinople had seen several palace coups in recent decades, and as far as the citizens at the time were concerned, this was simply another one of those. It was only after the crusaders put the pretender on the throne, and he didn't pay up, that they attacked the city again and set up the "Latin empire." But, once again, the "Latin empire" is our modern name for it--many of the "Byzantine" emperors (Manuel Comemnus et al) were more Latin than the Franks. This was simply another palace coup.

Moreover, Innocent III immediately proceeded to issue excommunications against the crusaders and the Venetians for diverting the crusade from its object and attacking Christian lands. Thus, the idea that "the Church" owes anyone an apology for 1204 is ridiculous--and so is the notion, repeated over and over again in anti-western polemics, that the Catholic Church had some kind of overarching genocidal policy against the East, or that the Orthodox are "rape victims" at the hands of the evil papacy.

As a matter of fact, if one examines the history of East-West polemics, one finds that no one on the Eastern side tried to blame the Catholic Church for the 1204 sack of Constantinople prior to the city's fall to the Turks in 1453. It was only after 1453 that the "Latins" became the villians, as Constantine XI's union with Rome received the blame, from the clergy, for the Theotokos withdrawing her protection from her city. They would have been better off blaming the traitorous Serbian armorers, who provided the Turks with the necessary artillery to go after the Theodosian walls.

Anyway, it was apparently due to 1453 that the specter of 1204 became prominent in Eastern polemics. Now, as you know, it is an extremely prominent part of the Greek cultural memory and ethnic conciousness--it might have happened yesterday. Moreover, in that conciousness (to which our Alice, to her eternal credit, does not subscribe!), it is the Latin Church that is to blame, the Roman Catholics so prone to rapine and slaughter.

Anyway, my main point is that the common perception that the Catholic Church should bear the guilt for 1204 is inaccurate based on the facts, was not shared by people at the time, and came into existence about two-and-one-half centuries after the event.

God bless.

LatinTrad

I would like to remind all on this wonderful and educational forum about the Serbian Holy Land which Serbs are calling "Crucified Kosovo," we must not forget the Tzar Martyr Lazar and his Serbian army was considerably outnumbered by the Turks-the Tzar and his army received Holy Communion and the next day vastly outnumbered the Tzar Martyr and his army perished, however they stopped the takeover of Europe. Atrocities are committed on all sides during wars, however, we must also look at the continued persecution of the Phanar where the Ecumenical Patriarch, His All Holiness Bartholomew and his Synod resides. About a year ago, I believe the Phanar was firebombed?

MUSLIMS DEMAND APOLOGY-I imagine Osama bin Laden will ask for an apology at some point too! I know Muslims who left their ancestral homelands because they realized what the "Islamic Fundamentalists" are striving to implement. I realized after reading this many times, my Muslim friends apologized for the "errors of our Muslim brothers of the past." I would also like to point out that on the front of our home I place a pewter three bar crucifix that I purchased from Byzantine Seminary Press, for two years now a person or persons have "stolen" or "removed" the crucifix and I keep putting up a new one when this happens. I don't know who does this, my son thinks I am wasting money as well as a crucifx if and when its removed. At Christmas time or the correct term is: "the holiday season" we can't put out Nativity scenes which is something I always loved doing as a boy. Who else is going to demand an apology?

One could make a good case that Muhammed was the Anti-Christ. Who then would we be apologizing to?

Folks:

Glory to Jesus Christ!

No apology should be offered! The crusades were launched in an effort to recapture the lands which islam took via force of arms in the 7th century.

Further, islam is not a religion! In order to have a religion the following must be present:
1. An altar
2. A priest
3. A blood sacrifice

All the best,

Scott

Ray, I agree with your statement, however, Muhammed according to Muslims I know and several Orthodox priest, Russian and Greek said that in the Quaran (I don't know where) but supposedly, Islams Prophet Muhammed stated that the Greek Orthodox Monastery of St. Katherine at Mt. Sinai is not to be disturbed because it in fact contains a mosque within the monastery walls and it is well know by book and the video "Where God Walked on Earth-the Monastery of St. Katherine at Mt. Sinai" the Bedouin have helped the monks for centuries. Aplogize to the Muslims for the past, when now in the present Kosovo is under Muslim threat daily and monks and nuns need armed escorts to travel? No apology necessary in my opinion. And what about the Coptic Orthodox and Catholics persecuted, in Saudi Arabia one cannot display any Christian symbols. Plese, persecution is alive and well in these countries!

NUTS!
Stephanos I
If you want my honest opinion, I say we should call for the final crusade.

If the Holy Father asked for my advice (he will not, and I hope nobody else does either) I would use Ann Coulter's quote from 2001.

It is nice that this one little group, that really does not have any voice represnting the Muslim world would like an apology. But where does it go from there?

We are still not tolerated in land they control, we are looked down upon and persecuted. The goal of Islam is to convert all to their faith either by word or might.

Many mistakes were made by the crusades, and much suffering came about because of it. Many innocent people on both sides died or suffered greatly. It was a mistake that was necessitated by their intolerance.

Instead of an apology, maybe they should carefully examine history and what lead to the crusades. Maybe they can learn from history so the same mistakes can be stopped in there repetitive cycle. Maybe it may open their eyes more to tolerance.

In the gospels we are taught to love our enemies and persecutors. Nowhere if it is taught in the Koran do they seem to attampt to practice that. Instead of an apology, maybe they should exercise love and understanding.

Certain apologies were needed by the pontiff to make up for abuses in the past, and this pontiff has shown humility by offering them. Each faction that was apologized to, was grateful for it, and looked to it as a new era in closing the door to a painful past and a chance to work and learn from each other.

I do not think this is part of this group's agenda. I think they just want to humiliate the Christian world, so that they could reinforce their feelings of religious superiority.

Let them live and learn to love, but in true practice what Mohammed teaches. When this is done, maybe we can revist the issue, but not before then.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Father Anthony I agree with you competely! The Holy Father has shown the world what humility is. As a former Orthodox I could never understand why the Moscow Patriarchate would not invite the Pope who said he would go to Russia with an invatation from the Russian Orthodox Church. Again, Pope John Paul shows humility and I have often wondered how the rest of the world views the Russian Orthodox Church at not extending a brotherly invite to Holy Russia!

The Holy Father definitely should apologize. The Ecumenical Patriarch should join him, as should the descendants of each of the Byzantine Imperial houses since Heraclius. But only at an international forum of leading Muslim Imams/Ayatollahs (hah! like to see that) who would apologize for Dhimmitude, jannisary type systems, the invasion of Egypt, the Eastern Med., Anatolia, North Africa, and Spain?

Not gonna happen? Well, maybe we should lower our expectations - can we get this Imam to lobby to protect the rights of the Copts? Will they preach and promote a truly equal status for the Coptic Church?

Marc

To the Hellenic Parliament:

Sano Halo's personal account of a death march in Turkey that took the lives of her family -- as recounted by her daughter, Thea, in "Not Even My Name" -- bears witness to the greatest crime humanity can perpetrate against itself: genocide.

The Turkish state's elimination of its Armenian, Greek and Assyrian populations was part and parcel of the same effort to obliterate Turkey's Christian minorities. All were perpetrated during the same time frame, by the same governments, and using the same methods - namely, massacres, labor camps and death marches under the guise of deportations.

New York State's governor George Pataki and the Armenian National Committee have recently added their voices to a growing community of individuals and organizations of conscience that have recognized the genocide of Asia Minor' s Greeks by the modern Turkish state.

Now Greece, which has wrestled with its own turbulent history to evolve into a champion of democratic ideals, human rights and the rule of law, is poised to betray these very principles by denying the historical reality of a genocide that was perpetrated against its own people.

Story from the Assyrian News Agency:
http://www.aina.org/news/20050315192749.htm

Dear Bergshlawiner,

Interesting article. Unfortunately, Turkey is a nation that threatens and bullies, and gets away with it because of its strategic location.

Greece lives in fear of its not so friendly neighbor, as the flying of military planes over Greek air space to intimidate is commonplace year after year and lets not forget that the Ecumenical Patriarch lives in a very hostile environment. As a young Turkish Muslem visitor to this site said himself a couple of months ago, " Turkey didn't have a problem with Christians, just Greeks".

I don't know what the answer is, but I do understand the fear and why when one lives in fear but also wants to live in peace, one must acquiesce to the other.

A question to the European Union one might pose in considering their membership...does a leopard ever change its spots?

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Father Anthony,

Bless!

I totally agree with the sentiments in your post. It was very well thought out and charitable, yet truthful.

Kissing your right hand,
Alice