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Dear Anastasios,

But why are you against the union of ROCOR with the MP?

What does time have to do with it?

Alex

Actually the uncertainty concept that you discuss about priests "really" being priests is utterly disimilar to quantum indeterminacy.

In the latter case, the fact that the outcome after "conversion" (measurement) could be predicted with certainty suffices to show that their status was not indeterminate - that they were priests. I think this is not what you want to say.

If that state had actually been indeterminiate, then some after conversion some would be found not to be priests and others would be found to be priests - with no way of telling, a priori, who would be who.

Alex,

Simply because as much as I would like union between the two bodies, I do not believe that the MP has responded appopriately yet by rejecting ecumenism. I give Pat Alexy credit for apologizing for his past and I am not one to judge the MP under communism so you won't see me making a fuss about "Sergianism." If the MP really did renounce ecumenism, then I would think the time is right.

Time figures into the equation in that while I think union is a good idea, it is not a good idea yet until the MP renounces ecumenism. I think if ROCOR were a little more patient they might achieve that goal; instead it seems to me they are caving in.

Just my opinion.

Anastasios

Dear Anastasios you said:

"Time figures into the equation in that while I think union is a good idea, it is not a good idea yet until the MP renounces ecumenism. I think if ROCOR were a little more patient they might achieve that goal; instead it seems to me they are caving in."

I say: Caving in to what? In doing what our Lord wants of His Church?

Zenovia

I personally feel this is another miracle of the Holy Spirit happening in our lifetime. Our God is the Living God! The slow but steady progress demonstrated between ROCOR and ROC are a lesson to learn from and a model in diplomacy. At one point, I believe from reading on the internet, it appeared such a feat could never happen, due to so many fundamental core differences reflected by the posters, and yet, here it comes to fruition. We should embrace this change, learn from it, and see if we can apply it towards hopefully sharing the same Cup.

Alleluia! Slava Isusu Christu! Amen!

The mysteries of the Lord are awesome.

Michael

In Christ, Michael

Ecumenism is not what the Lord wants; hence, by the ROCOR standing courageously against ecumenism all these years and then rushing in to union without solving the issue of ecumenism, that would be a cave-in and contrary to the will of God, which is that we worship him in the spirit of truth.

Anastasios

Dear Photius,

Bewailing my ignorance of quantum physics (or any other kind of physics), I am nevertheless fascinated - could you, of your kindness, tell me what Schoedinger's cat is? Thanks in advance!

Incognitus

Dear Anastasios,

Well, I can appreciate your concerns about ecumenism.

However, if anyone, the Orthodox who do participate in it do so with the greatest sense of reality and sobriety - including your own St Vladimir's Seminary and the OCA.

I doubt very much if ROCOR attitudes about ecumenism will change after reconciliation with their Mother Patriarchate.

Ultimately, I think we tend to see things as North Americans - in theological terms only.

ROCOR is, first and foremost, a RUSSIAN Orthodox jurisdiction, from "Holy Orthodox Russia" and its Tsarist version especially.

What draws them and the Moscow Patriarchate towards each other is not theology or ecclesial policies that distinguish them.

It is the sense of closeness they feel because of a common religious/national/cultural identity and shared heritage.

ROCOR is, in its own way, "ecumenical" too. It is a pioneer in openness to the Old Believers and other Orthodox that share their deeply traditional "heart-rending" Slavic Orthodoxy (such as the Serbians).

In the years before the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church became reestablished, we counted a number of very important friends in the person of ROCOR-ites.

I know Ukrainian Catholic monastics who have joined ROCOR - that would have been impossible if ROCOR wasn't open to sharing their religious experience with others, which is what true ecumenism is all about.

And I think ROCOR has more to offer the MP than the other way around - an enriching experience for all.

The momentum for this reconciliation is too strong for it to be stopped.

And we North Americans who often strive to be as Orthodox as ROCOR sometimes misunderstand the important Slavic, Russian component of their Orthodoxy.

Congratulations on your graduation though!

Alex

Both the Serbian and Jerusalem Patriarchates participate in Ecumenical organizations. The idea that ROCOR would hold off rejoining the MP on this point makes no sense to me as it is already in communion with those churches.