www.byzcath.org Forums Preaching Jesus Christ to the West

Dear Friends,

Our brother, Joe Thur, raised this in another thread, that is, the preaching of Jesus Christ.

However, our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, is already in the preaching of the Western Catholic and Protestant witness in North America.

If what we are about is to preach Jesus Christ, I think we're beaten to the punch by others, even though there is a lot of agnosticism and practical atheism in our society.

Would it not be more to the point to say that Byzantine Christianity preaches a particular perspective on OLGS Jesus Christ that the Western Christian denominations overlook and that the West in general is hungry for?

Eugene Ivankiw, in an article for St Volodymyr and Olga's UGC parish in Chicago once described Byzantine Christianity this way.

"Our Church is the Church of the Resurrection of Christ, the Lord of the Universe, of the Holy Spirit and of the glorification of the Most Holy Theotokos and all the Saints! Our Church's interior, liturgical worship et al. reflects our constant preoccupation with glorifying the Holy Trinity and with Theosis, the Divine Light."

Is not this what we are called to witness to in a Christian West that has lost the "umph" in its sense of Christian Triumph?

Is this not the foundation of our enthusiasm for our Orthodox and Catholic faith and liturgical praxis?

The Christ we preach to the world is the Resurrected and Glorified Christ Who sits at the Right Hand of the Father in Divine Light.

Is this not a different Christ than the "Jesus is my buddy" version known in the West?

Alex

Alex,

I think you raise an excellent point. I've been searching for years to find the "Jesus is my buddy" Jesus in the Bible. I can't find it. But St. John's Gospel is loaded with the kind of Christ I hear preached every Sunday. Quite refreshing after the pablum I heard most of my life. There were many great exceptions, mind you. I'm not completely critical by any means. But I certainly agree that "high" Christology is what I hear from Father Tom and I very much like it.

Father demonstrates the difference this way. The West reaches up to Christ through its emphasis upon the rational. One can easily see it in the traditional architecture of Western Church. (Just to note, some of the most modern architecture depicts the chaos of the Western mind and not its rationality. Perhaps its the limits of or end of Western rationalism. It isn't enough but they don't know where to turn.) The East depicts a God condescending to us because we cannot by ourselves reach up to Him. With the domes he wraps His arms around us and lifts us to Himself.

It's quite a blessing after spending much of my life and much of every week proving my worthiness to a world that doesn't care. Every week and whenever possible through the week days I come and am embraced by the Maker and Savior of the World and know that my life has meaning.

Sort of reminds me of St. Athanasios', "The Divine Dilemma". O, for the wisdom of the Fathers.

Dan L

Dear Professor Dan,

And you raise an excellent point in return!

My RC priest-teachers often derided Byzantine Christology, saying that it emphasized Christ's Divinity "too much."

They suggested that was a "turn off" since Christ's Humanity was submerged in Eastern theology.

I'm looking at this from a "marketing" perspective (if I may use a term like that here) and I see that "becoming like God" is what the West really does want from its "transcendental" experiences (I hesitate to use "religious" too loosely).

Theosis is critical to understanding the Divine Incarnation of OLGS Jesus Christ, to understanding the meaning of the Mysteries/Sacraments in the Life in Christ and also to understanding the veneration of the Saints within the context of the Communion of Saints.

And yet we tend to take these things for granted - do we assume new converts will somehow intuit them when they "get into the swing of things" with the Liturgy? Do we think there are no philosophical issues for Western people with this?

In fact, from what I've seen, Eastern Christianity is, qualitatively, COMPLETELY different from Western Catholicism and Protestantism in this respect.

And I don't think the East emphasizes Christ's Divinity OVER His Humanity - that smacks of Nestorianism to me.

I believe the Christian East gives a proper focus to the Deified Humanity of Christ, in which we participate as Members of His Body that is the Church, and are brought to a participation of deification as well.

Is this not the Good News from the East? Is this not what makes us jump for joy indescribable? Who could sleep thinking about this?

Alex

As a Latin Rite and former Evangelical myself I thought I'd put down a couple of thoughts based on my limited understanding (though growing every day) of Eastern Christianity.

I'm not sure I would agree that the West doesn't have some concept of Theosis in its teachings. Of course, it all depends on who you are talking to and how orthodox (small o) they actually are. I think many western ecclesial communities, however, have lost much of this concept due to some of the innovations of the Reformers. "Total depravity" and the like are rather hostile, I would say, to Theosis.

Rather, in the Latin Rite, John Paul the Great's emphasis on the "universal call to holiness" (via his prolific list of canonizations) is a great example of how the West treats with this concept. It is Jesus command to "be perfect as Your heavenly Father is perfect," and this is only possible by the power of God's grace as exemplified in the lives of the saints. This may just be a different (Western obviously) way of looking at the same concept... if it is, indeed, the same concept (I think it is). If anything, it emphasizes the "doings" and not so much the "beings" of Theosis (the West's Martha to the East's Mary as Fr. Loya puts it I believe).

I have been meaning to write something about my experiences in Evangelical Protestantism in terms of gifts to be taken from them and gifts the Church has to offer, particularly Eastern Churches as an aid to the discussions of evangelization. Theosis is, indeed, one of them though I'll have to get into this at a later since I haven't the time right now. In short, the ecclesial communities are so used to railing against the West's emphasis on "doings" it is trying to develop the "beings" way of looking at it.

Liberal "theology" is what has been emphasizing the humanity of Christ over His Divinity. Emphasizing the former to the point of rejecting the latter. This strain of thinking is to be found in some of the mainline historical denominations and some elements of dissenting Latin rite people. As I alluded to elsewhere, there's much pruning to be done in this lung of the Church and, in my view, the Eastern Churches are in a much better position to spearhead the new evangelization.

I should like to write more but I'm running behind on a number of things.

In Him,
Mike

Dear Mike,

You've raised a brilliant point . . .

Yes, the RC West has many Saints (and St John Paul the Great understood and appreciated the Eastern view on Theosis, to be sure).

But this raises the difference between East and West on "holiness."

I'm also learning more about the Catholic West here, owing to all the RC posters we have (and it's great having you!).

So this is how my simplistic and untrained mind sees the differences:

In the West, holiness is about the acquisition of Grace defined as something that comes from God.

In the East, holiness is about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit Himself.

In the West, sanctification has to do with the imitation of Christ, a process that only Grace may achieve through prayer and the sacraments.

In the East, sanctification is about participating in the Life in Christ and in the Divine Energies that emanate from God through participating in the deified Body of Christ through prayer and the Mysteries.

How about that?

Alex

Hey y'all!

"buddy" roughly equals friend. The hymn, sung in many denominational churches throughout America, not just the buddy-buddy South, What A Friend We Have in Jesus, may be largely responsible for this perspective in America (and elsewhere, when American 'missionaries' have exported American Religious christianity to other places).

But having said that, we are reminded that Our Lord Himself is actually recorded to have said, "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you." St John 15.13-15

There is an intimacy there that cannot be avoided. St John not only records what he does for the benefit of the earliest witnesses, but also for the 2nd Sitz im Leben and the 3rd... and every successive generation of the Church thereafter!!! Praise the Risen Christ!!!

The concern that I hear expressed here is one that balances the transcendence of God with the immanence of God.

In Christ we do have a friend indeed-- He said so!!! We also have One Who sits at the right hand of God (the Father). Somewhere in between those two extremes there is a place where ALL Christians may stand in/with confidence! grace and peace, wg

Dear Wild Goose,

I've no problem with the "Theology of the Buddy."

I have a problem with blurring the distinction between who I am and Who He is.

May I suggest that this "buddy" mentality leads to a disrespectful familiarity between the creature and the Creator that should never exist?

Alex

This has quickly surpassed my level of skill to differentiate. I feel as though half of my time is learning what I ought to have learned long ago about the West as I learn about the East, so these comments should be taken with due amounts of salt.

I'm not sure "acquisition" is the right word to place in there for holiness. Perhaps a better way to put it would be that: holiness is about the *experience* or *revealing* of the grace which flows to us from God who is apart from us. We can't "acquire" grace, we can only recieve it.

In a similar vein for the other set, I would say that sanctification is *evidenced* by our imitation of Christ.

The way I see it, in the West, there is a stress on making oneself open to receiving the grace of God given through prayer and the sacraments. In the East, it seems, there is a stress on receiving that grace via participation in the divine life, prayer and the Mysteries and not so much stress on the self-preparation. I'm sensing, however, that this way of articulating the Eastern mentality is probably deficient in several aspects that escape me at the moment.

To borrow some language from Fr. Loya: we must be perfectly at home in this paradox. I've actually been putting a lot of thought into this problem in some discussions with a dissenting Catholic I know. Their opinion is that one simply cannot fear God, ever. Rather, God is always holding their hand and such. It's very much a focus on the familiarity to the neglect of awe and reverence.

The issue is that we have to live with both. The Scriptures are replete with injunctions to "fear the Lord" and that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. On the other hand, we have the example of St. John who reclined on Our Lord's breast at the last supper and the very reality of the incarnation of Immanual - God with us. He condescends to us that we might be familiar with Him, such as He allows us to be unworthy though we are.

The way I put it, is that we first fear God, for He is almighty and all powerful and has every right to smite us. Lord have mercy! We learn, first, the fear of the Lord so that we understand our relative positions of Creature and the incomprehensible Creator and the infinite chasm between us. Then, we have the revelation of the Word made flesh, who came to us that we might go and be with Him. Such is God's love for His creation that He does this for us despite such terrible price to pay.

This leads to the love of God (check out 1 Jn. 4:13-21) for He loved us first. His love abides in us and when it is perfected in us, we shall no longer have any reason to fear because we shall also have been perfected. Love drives out fear. Of course, if any of us should claim to be perfected in His love, they would either be the greatest saint to have ever lived or the greatest fool.

We live somewhere between fear of God and love of God - between our imperfection and our perfection-to-come. The problem is some people will stress one or the other position to the detriment and neglect of the other and this is where problems arise.

In Him,
Mike

Alex,

AMEN!

I can't thank you enough for your posts on this topic. You have expressed wonderfully a sense that has been growing in myself as well for the past week or so as I've reflected more on our mission here in North America and beyond. We must always preach Christ, using words only if necessary. This fundamental kerygma must always be the basis for our common life as Byzantine Catholics, as well as any effort at mission and evangelization. Are we not his disciples - no less than those who lived and heard him 2000 years ago? We have a unique way of expressing this great mystery of the Messiah that I believe helps to offset some of the semi-Arian spiritual and theological tendencies witnessed in Western culture. We truly have GOOD NEWS to proclaim - and it has nothing to do with how much cheese to put in the peroghi! (Well, maybe not as much as some might think!)

I'd write more, but I'm off to the airport.

Peace,

Gordo

Dear Gordo,

Have a great trip! And don't forget the wings of prayer while your up there!

Alex

Dear Mike,

Well, "acquisition" is the word used by St Seraphim of Sarov - himself a noted recipient of the Uncreated Light.

That's why I use the word, but I'm easy!

Again, the Fathers talked about how fear and the purgative experience precedes a unitive experience that "casts out fear" etc.

That's all true.

But God is God and the Incarnate God, Jesus Christ, is that as well.

We must never, in the spiritual life, lose the distinction between ourselves and the Other Who is our Brother.

I think to see Christ as "God" and then as "the Human Jesus" is akin to a kind of Nestorianism that the Christian East has often seen in the West throughout history (certainly, the seeming alliance between Rome and Nestorianizing teachers didn't help matters any).

The point is that familiarity is nowhere enjoined by the Fathers.

It is simply an attempt to bring God to our (weak and sinful) human level, when we should be, through Theosis, coming up to His level, in respect, worship and adoration.

Our Lord Himself reinforced such distinctions when asked by His disciples to be taught to pray - He affirmed that when "you pray, say these words." Our Lord Himself, as the Divine Son of God, could not meaningfully pray the Our Father as a prayer from Himself to His Father.

Christ Who is a Divine Person Who has taken on human nature from the Most Holy Theotokos (our tainted nature's solitary boast) is God Incarnate.

He extends His Hand to us.

But we are not to shake it.

We are to take it reverently and kiss the Nail Wound in adoration that we will find there, crying warm tears of repentance and love.

Alex

See... that was just excellent. I have so much to learn from you guys.

My own knowledge of Christology is fledgling at best so I can't really speak to the matter of Nestorian tendencies in the West. That we seem to have returned to many of the Christological heresies in liberal theology, however, is pretty evident.

I do totally agree that we are not to shake the hand that is extended to us. Rather, I prefer the approach that St. John takes in the start of the book of Revelation or the reaction of Isaiah. Both speak more toward the proper response of creature to Creator and both St. John and Isaiah must wait for an act of God before continuing.

The familiarity of equals is not, I think, something we are to presume in any way shape or form this side of the eschaton. Even on the other side, I very much doubt it will be anything like the "theology of the buddy" (I laughed out loud when I read that).

Speaking of Fathers, do you have a "recommended" reading list anywhere around. Actually any resources would be great.

Hi Alex,

never? pray tell! do say more; I'd be interested to see how this unfolds in practice. blessing, wg

Thanks, Alex! Actually, I prayed the Akathist to OLGS Jesus Christ while over the Bering Straight!

I usually pray the Moleben to Jesus Christ, the Lover of Mankind which is one of my favorite prayers, but in recent weeks, I haven't been quite sure to say it:

Lover of us all?
Lover of all of us?
Lover of everybody?

So I stuck with the Akathist...

Gordo

Check this out, brother:

http://www.archeparchy.ca/liturgical/praises/moleben_xp_lover.htm

grace and peace and traveling mercies, wg