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John
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djs wrote:
If this establishment happened "out of the blue", then I would agree. But in reality it happened in a context of political maneuvering to that cannot simply be disregarded.
I tend to agree with Stuart on this one. If Rome had be astute politically they would have simply re-established the dioceses that were destroyed by the communists. The MP arguments against the re-establishment of those dioceses would have been far weaker than the current one against the new dioceses. I suspect that many of the problems on the Roman Catholic are due to simple ignorance about Eastern Christians. We have done a mighty poor job in educatin� them.

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Dear Administrator,

Alas, politics is politics!

The Vatican would not have made the moves it did on Russia without a well-planned political program set down in advance.

As for educating Rome on Eastern Christianity, Rome has the best Eastern Church professors around.

Even Orthodox go there to do their doctorates.

But Rome's nasty treatment by the Orthodox, I will say, looks good on it.

Rome's treatment of Eastern Catholics for the sake of its Ostpolitik policy has finally come home to roost with every Latin priest given the proverbial boot out of Russia.

Alex

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Dear Stuart,
Baruch haShem Adonai!

Yes, both you and I know that Stuart understands these things very well - too well, one might say . . .

And you and I know that Stuart also appreciates the shabby treatment of Byzantine Catholics in Russia . . . by the Vatican.

But now Moscow is defending itself by expelling RC priests.

Vatican Ostpolitik has hit an all-time low, unless, of course, that is part of the new approach as well.

You and I both can remember when Stuart wrote of this ecclesial bullying some time ago.

And, just between you and me, I think Stuart was right.

Alex

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What is the real reason for the Melkite Patriarch visiting Ukraine? Are there any Melkites in Ukraine? Could this be some kind of support that he is giving to creating and maybe regognizing a UGCC Patriarchate? Could other Patriarchs regognize a UGCC Patriarchate and being so put pressure on the Vatican to do so as well?
Lauro

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Dear Lauro,

The Melkites have always been very good friends to our Church.

It's an interesting relationship, I've always thought.

We are sometimes jealous of their strong Eastern character, and they like the great numbers of our membership wink .

His Beatitude is showing his support for our Particular Church, having come out of the catacombs and the age of New Martyrdom.

If there are any politics afoot with respect to our patriarch's recognition by Rome, then - good!

But, really . . .

What argument can Rome offer to not recognize our Patriarchate today?

That doing so will anger the Moscow Patriarchate?

Rome is doing that very well all by itself, duzhe diakuyu!

God bless,

Alex

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Alex said: "The Melkites have always been very good friends to our Church."

Very true Alex.

Bishop Nicholas Samra has beent he guest presenter at the past 4 eparchial conferences for St. Nicholas Eparchy. He was very good and very well liked.

Our eparchial conference starts this Thursday in Phoenix and guest speakers will be Fr. Roman Galadza and Metropolitian Stephen and I believe Fr. Petras?

I think Bishop Samra needed a break from us Ukies biggrin

-uc

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Dear Administrator:

Perhaps you and StuartK are right: this was simply a bone-headed blunder on the part of the Vatican. I see this more like Alex, however, as part of a thought-out political move, and arguably the best move under bad circumstances.

When this issue was new and under discussion here in February, I was amazed, while lurking, to see the complete absence of any consideration of the broader political context - specifically, the political current that was moving toward categorizing the Catholic church in Russia as a "foreign" religion. This connection may indeed be conicidental, I have no way of knowing. But I find it odd that this broader context seems to be so invincibly ignored.

Quote
If Rome had be astute politically they would have simply re-established the dioceses that were destroyed by the communists.
Border changes and the tendency to keep diocesan borders within national borders militated against this possibility from the start, in the early 1990's when the ban against certain religious was eased.

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Rome's treatment of Eastern Catholics for the sake of its Ostpolitik policy has finally come home to roost with every Latin priest given the proverbial boot out of Russia
Well, Alex there is a lot to gripe about in this area, but let's be clear about one very important thing. The re-emergence of Eastern Catholics, particularly in western Ukraine, and the charge that the Vatican was not inhibiting this alleged neo-uniatism marked the beginning of the deterioration of relations between the the Vatican and the MP. It continues to be a major factor, and arguably the major factor, that keeps this relationship sour. The annihilation of Russian Orthodox diocese in Western Ukraine remains as the major charge of prosyletism levied by the MP. The Pope stood with us; he did not abandon us in the name of Ostpolitik, at a tremendous cost - for whatever it might have been worth - in the Vatican/MP relations. To blame the the terrible state of these relations on a calculated move by the Vatican is IMO correct. But that calculated move was the support of our churches, in the post-communist era.

djs

PS the difficulties encountered by RC priests with obtaining visa's even in the mid-1990's - before the erection of the diocese - are well-documented on press reports on the net.

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Dear djs,

I'm not blaming the Pope - he's a good friend of ours too! wink

When the Pope came to the Throne of Peter, he insisted that Poland be kept out of the Vatican's Ostpolitics. As Archbishop, he knew all about it and, like other hierarchs who actually had to live under communism, didn't think highly of it.

I love the Italians. But I think they should thin out their ranks in the Vatican diplomacy department with people from Eastern Europe who go beyond academics and armchair politics and have some real experience dealing with real problems.

Alex

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