www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Melkite Patriarch To Visit Ukraine In Late September

Does anyone know if anyone is leading a pilgrimage from America in order to attend this occasion?

Elias

I still don't see why there was any need to elevate the Latin exarchates in Russia to diocesan status. If it was considered necessary to the dignity of the apostolic administrators that they be addressed as diocesan bishops, they should have been made titulars of some fly-blown Calabrian village, which would have preserved the figleaf of territoriality. Taken from an ecumenical perspective, the entire incident makes no sense--unless one understands the constant jockeying for position and prestige that characterizes Vatican politics.

Actually, the logical thing would have been to re-establish the dioceses that were already there prior to the communists under the traditional names.

Stuart, I�ve noticed that you are always willing to immediately fault the Vatican and never anyone within Orthodoxy. Do you believe in some sort of infallibility for the Orthodox? Do the people in the MP never make mistakes? Are they to be assumed blameless until proven otherwise. If indeed you believe that the Roman Catholics should neither provide pastoral care to Roman Catholics in Russia nor evangelize the unchurched should the reverse hold true for Western Europe? I am curious to understand how you go about forming your opinions.

I think that there have been plenty of mistakes on both sides. I understand the frustration of the Orthodox with Rome but I also understand Rome�s complaint that all of the ecumenical gestures come from her without an equal response from the Orthodox.

Dear Administrator,

As long as you are here, if Stuart comes after me, I'll hide behind you for protection . . .

The Russian Orthodox Church is experiencing growing pains over there, just as it did with Peter I.

I would suggest that the Latin parishes have less to do with RO anger than the idea that the RO is no longer the only religion of Russia.

And I'm only beginning to understand this process.

In Galicia, there are now Orthodox parishes where before there was only the Ukrainian Catholic Church. That takes some getting used to and the violence that has flared and does still flare up is due to that shock.

The Vatican has trouble relating to this especially since it comes from the world of today with its religious and cultural diversity.

Russia is a different Russia today. It is beginning to open up and try new things, for better or for worse. The openness to the West on the part of the Russian intelligentsia has always been a hard "pilula" to swallow by the Russian guardians of formerly monolithic Russian society.

The Russian Church knows that its unchurched people don't see the theological differences between the Churches, only differences of ritual and style.

And it knows that the collaboration of the Russian Church with the government hasn't done great things for the image of its bishops among the people, although the people are very attached to Russian Orthodoxy as such.

Like Roman Catholicism in medieval times, so too does the ROC need to stop relying on the secular power to achieve what only preaching and updated religious outreach can achieve today for the people of Russia in search of spiritual meaning for their lives.

Yes, that means competition with other faiths. But it also means a better self-understanding and honing of evangelistic tools that originally won Russia for Christ centuries ago.

Oops! Almost tripped on my soap box on the way down.

Alex

StuartK,

My post on the "Orthodox Church leader accuses..." thread might help make the action more understandable. Given the nascent, revised religion law, it may have seemed necessary re-establish regular diocesan structure. While a gesture in nomenclature was in fact made, it was nevertheless crucial to link these structures to historical ones. If the Vatican took no action, or appeared to be establishing entirely new/foreign dioceses, they risked forfeiting grounds on which to claim an historical presence in Russia. The consequences of such a forfeiture might, depending on the final form of the law, be terrible for Catholics in Russia.

djs

Dear djs,

Yes, but law or not, if local authorities won't recognize a church for whatever reason, they don't have to.

I hope our friend Stuart doesn't think that just because Russia says she democratic, doesn't mean that she is democratic.

That will take years. For now, the ROC seems insecure about her position as there are many converts to new faiths, including the RC.

Alex

I think that as the Petrine Ministry resides with Rome, it is up to Rome to go the extra mile, to demonstrate the kenosis to which all are called. "He who would be first among you, let him be the servant of all". As to the unrequited ecumenical endeavors of Rome towards Moscow, "How many times must I forgive my enemy? Seven times seven?" and, "If your enemy should smite you on the right cheek, turn and offer the left as well".

The purpose of the Petrine Ministry is to work towards the unity of all, and to that end Rome is called upon to bend over backwards, to go the extra mile, and to lead by example. Rome is not called upon to consider her own rights and prerogatives, for only by the setting aside of all prerogatives can Rome demonstrate what is required of all.

Finally, I will merely note that the establishment of the four Latin dioceses in Moscow was bone-headed, ham-fisted and stupid. Perhaps those suave Curial diplomats are not quite as suave and sophisticated as they think. And they say that G.W. Bush is a "Cowboy"!

Dear Stuart,

But Moscow considers itself to be a "Third Rome."

So doesn't what you say with respect to Peter and the First Rome apply to the Third Rome too?

Alex

Stuart,

Thank you for some positive words about the Catholic Church! I was beginning to wonder if you had any respect or love for her at all. But then you did balance it with some negative words about the curia.

I do think that Pope John Paul II has gone the extra mile and he continues to do so at ever opportunity (even if some of his curial officials are less than stellar).

Admin

Dear Administrator,

Yes, I've heard about those same curial officials in connection to our Churches' rights and traditions in the past . . .

Actually, what you say reflects my experience with the Ukrainian Catholic patriarchal movement in the time of Patriarch Josef.

As it dawned on everyone that Rome wasn't going to recognize the patriarchate, many colleagues adopted negative attitudes toward Rome (Stuart is actually a pussy-cat by comparison, even though I wouldn't want to face him in a boxing ring, I'm sure).

There were even those who wired the Patriarch to separate from Rome and establish his own Church!

Of course, he wrote back to say that "I didn't stay all those years in Siberia to defend communion with Rome only to leave it in freedom."

One patriarchal office received an article from someone outlining the "Masonic" connections of some RC Cardinals.

Far from dismissing it as anti-Catholic hype, they printed it in their anger at Rome.

The problem later became that this office got many, many calls from American RC priests who wanted a translation of the article to distribute to their parishes . . .

There's always someone with a grievance somewhere.

Alex

Qismah-Kismet:Kismet-Qismah:thesis+anti-thesis=synthesis.

How at peace with himself Hegel must be.

Abdur

Dear Abdur,

I pray that he is too!

Salaam Alekum!

Alex

If this establishment happened "out of the blue", then I would agree. But in reality it happened in a context of political maneuvering to that cannot simply be disregarded.

Time will tell where wisdom lies.

Dear djs,

It would seem where Moscow lacks the political skills of the Vatican, it makes up with expulsions and the more "direct" approach otherwise . . .

GOOD FOR MOSCOW, I SAY!

Our Church has taken a backseat courtesy of the Vatican for years as the sacrificial lamb on the altar of Rome's Ostpolitik.

And now Rome is reaping what it has sown.

Looks good on it, if I may say so . . .

Alex

But ONLY Moscow considers herself to be the Third Rome, and even if she were, she would be junior to Old and New Rome, both of whom have an ecumenical responsibility, and both of whom must act in accordance with it.

Inter alia, Stuart knows very well who and what Alexei II is, and can't tolerate him one pinch of owl dung. Stuart, however, takes the view that ecclesiological principles ought to take precedence over political expediency or personal dignity.