www.byzcath.org Forums Calvary Chapel

My wife attends a women�s group that meets at the local Mega Church (Calvary Chapel). To make a long story short she had to go to a meeting within the Church in which the local Pastor asked his congregation what Church they came from. When it came around to ask everyone to raise their hand if they came from the Catholic Church my wife said 85% of the people raised their hand.

We often worry about BCC�s going to the Latin Church instead of the BCC. It seems to me that we might want to worry about them leaving the Christian Church altogether.

Ray,

This is not only a concern as you have given by this example but is also one for the Orthodox Church. I know of some paople that claim their children are Orthodox, but they attend and commune in a Protestant Church. The family has little clue that they are no longer a member of the Church. This is an issue that both the Catholic (Roman and Byzantine, etc.) and the Orthodox have to examine and address agressively.

Good topic for discussion here.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

The danger is when Catholics and Orthodox who really don't know their Faith start getting tangled up in Protestant/Evangelical Bible studies. That's when our Tradition gets ridiculed as Catholics and Orthodox aren't able to defend their Faith from the Bible and get pulled out of the Church and into these groups.

The old rule of not praying with those who are not Catholic or Orthodox was actually in place to prevent these types of situations.

I agree with Ray and Fr. Anthony, but I do have some good news.

1. In the US, membership in Protestant churches is on the decline.

2. In the US, the turnover rate in Protestant churches is currently between 3 and 6 months.

3. In the US, membership in Orthodox and Catholic churches is on the rise.

4. Immigration does not account for all the increase as it is larger than the net influx of immigrants.

What that means for us is that they are loosing members and we are gaining them. Now if we could only convince the people already in the churches (or otherwise identifying with the church) to study their faith the way converts tend to do, we'd really be doing well!

Down this way Evangelical Protestants actually boast that the can be quiet sure that if they open up shop somewhere that they forcast how many of there congregation will be ex Catholics. I think from memory the figure is somehwere around 30-40%. The reason given is that Catholics are easy pickings as they dont know their own faith.

A priest who is a friend of one of my sisters has been in university chaplancy work for many years. He attended a conference of fellow Uni Chaplains and upset the day by declaring his main work was evangelising the products of the Catholic School system, as they dont know anything and are easy pickings for any groups from the Haris to the Navigators at Uni. He said at least the Protestants do know their bible and they (sects) dont do so well there. It was not what the wanted to hear as you can imagine. This good Dominican helps out in the UGCC in his other waking hours. So he must be OK.

I am curious Wondering about item number 2 on your list. What does that mean?

'Turnover' is a term used in business for employees (and customers) from the time they join to the time they quit. In the above example, the new protestant will quit the group in 3 to 6 months of joining.

Thanks for that info. Incredible!

Ex Catholics were always some of my best members. But they usually didn't stay long. 3-4 year stays was more typical in my experience. Some didn't know their own faith but more often than not they were divorced and didn't wish to go through the Annulment proceedings.

CDL

Dan, are you referring to your previous church or to the Byzantine Catholic Church ?

-- John

Dear Wondering,

I would disagree with some of your statements, based upon the statistics on religion that I have read.

I have not read anything to suggest that the turnover rate at Protestant churches is high. I would like to know where you got that statistic, because it would be interesting to see. I�m also curious if people have personally experienced that or heard about that. Also, where do the ex-Catholics go after they leave a Protestant Church ? Back to the Catholic Church ? To another Church ?

From what I have read, it is true that the number of Americans who call themselves �Protestant� is declining. However, it is also clear that many who used to call themselves Protestants are now calling themselves Evangelical or Pentecostal or Non-Denominational. There are also more Mormons. Hence, instead, it seems that there are plenty of Protestants (non-Catholic and non-Orthodox Christians) in America who are calling themselves different things.

More specifically, it seems that there are five trends currently occurring in American religion:

1. The number of liberal Protestants is decreasing.

2. The number of conservative Protestants / Mormons is increasing.

3. The number of Catholics is increasing.

4. However, the percentage of Americans who are Catholic has remained steady for the last 40 years (about 24%).

5. The number of Americans who profess no religion is increasing.

See the following:
the CUNY study http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm
the Glenmary study http://www.glenmary.org/grc/RCMS_2000/findings.htm
the CARA study http://cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/index.htm
the Gallup polls http://www.pollingreport.com/religion.htm (at the bottom of the page)
the Barna polls http://www.barna.org (click the tab that says �Barna by Topic�)
in general http://www.adherents.com

It would be tempting to say that America is polarizing in religion along liberal and conservative lines. In other words, it is tempting to say that those who are conservative tend to be more religious and that those who are more liberal tend to be more secular. And, there is an element of truth to that.

However, I�m not sure the situation is clear-cut.

For example, a lot of people who identify themselves to be members of a religion don�t practice it very much or very regularly. From the statistics that I have seen, attendance at weekly worship in America seems to be hovering at around 45%. (Gallup) This includes Roman Catholics, whose attendance at weekly Mass has dropped from about 65% in 1965 to anywhere between 45 % (Gallup) to as little as 33 % (CARA).

For another example, a lot of people from supposedly conservative churches have non-conservative views on abortion and homosexuality. (Barna)

For a third example, it will be interesting to see if liberal Protestant churches can reverse this trend and gain members by appealing to liberals who are spiritual enough to want to be religious. Recently, there were television advertising campaigns by the United Methodist Church and the United Church of Christ (two liberal Protestant churches). I wonder if those advertising campaigns will translate into new members (or, at least, holding their own)?

And as for the Catholics, their numbers are increasing but their percentage of the American population has remained constant over the last 40 years: about 24 %. Yet, at the same time, the population of America has increased. Furthermore, much of that increase has been from immigration from traditionally Catholic parts of the world (Latin America). Indeed, at the National Council of Catholic Bishops reports at its website ( http://www.usccb.org/comm/cip.shtml#toc1 ), 71 % of the growth of the American Catholic Church since 1960 has been due to the growth Hispanics in the U.S. population overall. Yet, despite this increasing number of Catholics, the percentage of Americans who are Catholics has remained steady over the last 40 years or so: about 24% . Furthermore, anecdotal evidence tells that many members of the Evangelical and other conservative Protestant churches are ex-Catholics, and many non-religious people are ex-Catholics. So, overall, I conclude that the American Catholic Church is gaining many new people, but it is also losing many people.

So, it makes for interesting times in American religion. The hottest action in American religion these days seems to be: (1) the growth of Evangelical, Pentecostal and Non-Denominational churches and (2) the growth of secularism. The rest seems to be in flux.

Just my two cents.

-- John

I don't know that we should characterize declines in Protestant churches as good news. To the extent that Protestants are leaving because they are being reconciled to the "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church," I agree that that is good news. However, people often leave Protestant churches and leave the faith completely. That is not good news. I am a former Protestant myself and I left because I believe that the fullness of the faith is not to be found among Protestant churches. But it was not an easy thing to do. I am the only person in my family who is Catholic. Sometimes I even have to deal with feelings of guilt for having abandoned the faith of my grandparents, to whom I am eternally grateful for having showed me the way to Christ. It is my hope that ultimately all Protestants would become Catholic or Orthodox. But for now, I do rejoice when people are led to Christ-even if it be by Protestants.
Ryan

I am so convinced good catechisis is key to the problem of those members of the Catholic and Orthodox faiths going over to Protestent denominations. If people really knew and understood Church history and exactly what traditional Christianity really teaches they would be much less likely to be swayed by other denominations and ready to explain and defend their own faith.

Here in Australia the census taken every 5 yrs shows that more people are no longer claiming to be part of any church/faith. People used toput do the name of the denomination they calimed to be part of even if they had not darkened their particular since the last wedding or funeral. I wonder if this is what is happening in the American situation, that people are leaving the formal religion scene altogether and are not even claiming to be nomimal members any more.

I think we all know that knowledge of their faith might help slow down the movements out of the church. However, it is a bit late for them once they have started to drift, by then they are out the door and gone.

United Methodist Church. I'm not ordained in the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Exactly. Either Protestant pastors are taught to never bring up the writings of the Early Fathers, and deliberately do so, or they are never taught about them and they don't show up on the radar screen. Either way, the laity in Protestantism are kept in the dark about the teachings of the Early Church. Many people, such as myself, believe in the back of their minds, that the apostles and their disciples were Protestant in praxis.

It is a complete shock to the system to discover the writings of the Early Fathers and see that Protestantism doesn't have a leg to stand upon. Anything in it that is orthodox Christianity is so because it came from the apostolic Church of the East and West as defined by Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

Brother Ed