www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople is against UGCPatiarchate

Dear Alex,

LOL! Now we know where you get your "hissy fits," as you call them! LOL! It's in your bloodline!

Tammy

Dear Tammy,

I'm sorry you had to see me this way . . .

Alex

I'd like to know what Kyr Lubomyr thinks of all of this. I bet that he gets sad and depressed at times, probably feeling betrayed.It's probably not very easy being in his position. I honestly think we need to pray for our church leaders and especially for Kyr Lubomyr our Patriarch and Daddy.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

Yes, I could see him extending his arms toward all Ukies and saying, "Come to Daddy!"

When he was here in Toronto, he approached the microphone to speak.

He then raised up two fingers AS IF he was going to bless us and everyone got ready to cross themselves . . .

And then he reached up and scratched himself in the head . . .

We all laughed.

But don't be offended when I say that it is indeed time for us to try and drop those allegiances to the various Romes and gather together under the Kyivan Church.

This Church, once united, can then speak with other patriarchs on an equal basis.

Those Rome's have divided us up in the past and we are still living with those divisions.

And then those same Rome's, having divided us, turn around and say, "What do you expect? You are divided!"

To heck with them all!

But don't be offended by any of this, please . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,

Don't worry about it. After all, I'm married to a Celt! Hot tempers are in the Celtic bloodline too! (You should meet my mother-in-law! LOL!)

Didn't you tell me that the Celts spread to Ukraine? Maybe it's the Celtic blood that gives the Ukies their tempers!

Tammy

Dear Tammy,

I guess I'm not the norm here. . .

The usual Ukrainian response to a difficult or threatening situation is "Yakosh to bude" or "Somehow things will work out . . ."

We have a 1,000 year history to show just how they did . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,
I'm in no way offended, maybe a little dissapointed and sad because I see good people in the UGCC, the UAOC and the KP church as well. These are our true brothers who love and fear God. Others have used us, made slaves of us and divided us and now these people want to tell us what rights we have or don't have.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

I was joking a bit with you, just to see if Brazil's hot climate has any negative effects on you!

You are right!

Alex

Does anyone beside me find this just a wee bit amusing? The Orthodox Churches are always complaining that union with Rome means giving up the freedom to be ourselves and follow our Eastern traditions. So we Ukies are feeling free enough to name our head honcho Patriarch and the Orthodox leaders are running to the Pope asking him to do something about it. LOL Too funny! But as my most esteemed brother Alex has pointed out in the past, no matter what the Ukie Church does, it will please no one, neither Rome nor Mowcow and I guess we can add Constaninople as well. Don

Dear Lauro:

The gist of your idea jibes with mine: forge unity among the UGCC, UAOC, and the UOC-KP and then declare a Kyivan Patriarchate!

This will certainly put the UOC-MP in a quandary: to join up or to shut up. If the UOC-MP chose the latter, boot them out of Ukraine and drive them across the border!

Perhaps this is what Rome wishes to happen because, frankly, the Pope as Supreme Pontiff has the power, canonically, to elevate the UGCC alone to a Patriarchate. But the "altar of ecumenism" stands on the way.

However, on that unification effort I perceive an inevitable clash of "egos" of Titanic proportions among the respective hierarchs of the 3 "rival" jurisdictions. It would be interesting to watch how the combined Holy Synods would arrive at a compromise. Hopefully, Kyr Lubomyr comes out on top!

For a Kyivan Patriarchate!

AmdG

What's with all this talk about UGCC, UAOC and UOC-KP "joining up" into a single patriarchate???

First of all, Orthodox and Catholics, while very close, have the difference of faith over Vatican I and true unity can not be based on forgetting the true issues that divide us;

Secondly, even if the others all joined together, the MP would still be the same size as them combined and its constituency is the mostly from the many Russian speakers in Ukraine so it's not like there would be much overlap; and

Thirdly, why would anyone WANT to speedily join up with the UOC-KP and the UAOC which are full of unsavory characters. Note I say speedily: I am for church unions but not speedy ones. The UGCC has something strong going for it: more purity among its bishops. Don't risk it by speedily joining with the UOC-KP.

I think the simple solution is to have a UGCC patriarchate and have the Orthodox of Ukraine unite under a Kievan Patriarchate for themselves. One Orthodox Church and One Catholic Church. Let each run its internal affairs as it wishes.

anastasios

Dear Anastasios:

We are just talking aloud with our minds and try to "untangle" the apparent hesitation on the part of Rome to affirm the elevation of the UGCC by her Holy Synod, motu proprio, into a Patriarchate based in Kyiv.

One Orthodox-one Catholic Kyivan Patriarchate has been bandied about before but it seems this "arrangement" could exist only ideally. It solidifies the divisions in the Church of Ukraine, which detracts from serious efforts by Rome on the ecumenism front.

If only the 4 jurisdictions could re-unite into one Church of Ukraine, a communal sigh would be heard worldwide.

Then, this single entity could decide on its own with whom to have communion with, or none at all.

Church politics seems to get on the way as usual.

AmdG

Dear Anastasios,
What divides us Ukrainians, is in truth world and church politics and nothing more. Check it out for yourself. These issues should be left behind, sins forgiven and start anew.
Lauro

I'm amazed at the quality and variety of responses, particularly from non-Ukrainians.

I'm of the same opionion as Anastasios; let each major confesion have their own Patriarch for a variety of reasons, including some of those mentioned by him. It may take years before a complete merger of all the churches takes place, in the interim each should have the right to promote it's position within Ukraine.

President Kuchma would not condem the official Vatican recognition of a UGCC Patriarchate. However, he would prefer one united Orthodox Church not because he thinks it would unite his people under one Christian 'umbrella', but because he would suddenly be president of a country with the largest Orthodox church in the world - talk about prestige you old slicker you Kuchma. :rolleyes:

For this very same reason, President Putin of Russia can't permit Ukraine to separate from it's imperial church, because if it did, the Patriarch of Moscow would no longer be in charge of the largest Orthodox church in the world.

One issue that I think again needs clarification is that the UOC-MP has more official communities in Eastern Ukraine (and total within the country) because it's OFFICIAL ALLY THE COMMUNIST PARTY, and some of it's other 'unsavory' supporters keep a tight grip at the local level on what type of church communities can register and get support. The vast majority of parishes / churches in the eastern part of the country are automatically registered under UOC-MP patriarchate. I have actually seen websites in which Russophilic communists in Ukraine support the Moscow Patriarch and condem the Western Ukrainians as being overly religious.

New federal government elections will occur this year. Once the Christian Democrats come to power, there will be a redistribution of church property and 'power' within Ukraine. Already, the government is signaling that communities do not equal practicing Christians. Also, a Ukrainian Christian Democratic president will begin negotiating with Moscow on an egalitarian basis (ie: not a 'little brother').

Rome has little time left in officially recognizing the Ukrainian Patriarchate. And I believe that with the recent postings (ie: EC Patriarch, etc..), it has become clear that things are heating up. Contrary to what Alex posted, the people of Ukraine are demanding at very least their own UGCC Patriarch - Now. The Pope has already said he agrees, but clearly there are Russophilic elements within the curia which are doing all possible to stop the event from occuring.

ne pora, ne pora, ne pora
Moskalevi .......

Dear Hritzko,

Rome will not recognize a patriarchate for the UGCC.

It didn't do that before when we had the formidable figure of Patriarch Josef the Confessor around - and it won't do it now.

The fact is, Hriziu mij, that Rome has it "too easy" not to recognize a patriarchate for the UGCC right now. Everyone and their uncle is saying "no" to it and Rome just needs stand back and say, "Well, how can we now?"

Things are truly heating up and that is why the EP has joined the fray. In recent months, the EP has patched things up with the MP in condemning the UOC-KP and other "schismatics." In fact, world Orthodoxy has condemned the UOC-KP and the UAOC.

And what would happen if Rome didn't recognize the UC Patriarchate?

Our people would do . . . what?

Join with the Ukrainian Orthodox? I don't think so! Throw a temper tantrum? That will pass!

So just what will our people do and after they've made a habit of congratulating each other for all the Martyrs their Church has produced who've died for union with Rome?

Let's just face reality here - everyone who isn't Ukrainian is against us, for the most part.

Our UGCC will continue to acknowledge its patriarchate while asking other Churches to acknowledge it too. There will be more cooperation between the UGCC and the Ukr. Orthodox "non-canonical" churches - that is guaranteed. But as for formal acts of unity between the churches of the Kyivan tradition - UGCC, UAOC and the UOC-KP, I just don't think we have the guts to do it. Some of us do, but the majority of our "people in the pews?"

We've been down this road before, we are more informed and more eager for a patriarchate, for a return to Byzantine tradition and for cooperation with our Orthodox brothers and sisters.

That's as far as it will go. You'll see.

And President Kuchma openly favours the UOC-MP and regards the other two Orthodox formations as openly uncanonical. There have been articles in this regard on Orthodox sites citing "our" President (bring back the Hetmanate!!).

Sorry to be so coldly realistic. I know our people aren't used to that perspective.

Alex