www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople is against UGCPatiarchate

Dear Anastasios,

Let me get you in on a secret about Ukrainian Catholics . . .

For many of us, "Vatican I" is thought to be a number assigned to a washroom in St Peter's Basilica.

If Vatican I was the only thing standing in the way of a united Ukr. Church . . .

And it's "Kyivan," not "Kievan" please.

Have a great weekend!

Alex

Our plans cetainly do not call for kissing his hand. But what should you say or do ? (You didn't answer my last questions in this regard).

When I met the Pope at the Vatican he held out both hands and we did a long 'four way hand shake / holding' thing. I said the first thing that came to my mind "Slava Isusu Khrystu". I thought it was appropriate especially since I was wearing my embroidered Ukrainian shirt. Father Figol now at the UGCC church in Etobicoke (Toronto) and whom you probably know took a picture of the event.

Alex, after years of "patriarchal activism", I have been living in denial, as most dedicated UGCC patriarshchi. I now fully believe what you say and agree. Tak pravda. Rome will not acknowledge Lubomyr as Patriarch. We need to be realistic about that. At least for the near future, it will not happen.

Rome has its back against a wall of ecumania, with the EP and the MP still barking orders to Cassidy, Kasper and the like. Rome still makes unilateral discussions with the MP and EP without even the slightest hint of consultation with Greek Catholics. Does that not tell us something about where we stand? And this lack of respect and acknowledgement includes not only the UGCC but most Greek Catholic churches.

The truth is Lubomyr and Filaret get along better together than many of our own UGCC bishops get along with each other, and better than some of our bishops get along with the Roman hierarachy.

While the Pope may have some Slavic tenderness for his Ukrainian flock, in the end it will not be manifested with granting a Patriarchate. At least not this Pope, and I believe if any Pope understood the situation (this one even having some Lemko blood I understand) and would do something it would have been this one.

The one best shot was his trip to Ukraine. When the Pope didn't recognize or greet Lubomyr as Patriarch at such a perfect and appropriate time and place as the Liturgy in L'viv, surrounded by millions of UGCC faithful, and after the beatification of all of those new martyrs that should have been a wake-up call for everyone.

I was on "delayed replay", and didn't get it or, more correctly, didn't want to get it until much later. If the UGCC is smart they will just follow suit with the Melkites, namely just elect a Patriarch and have him send for communion. I don't think Rome will be in a position to refuse the communion. But in the current UGCC hierarchical climate I don't think this will occur.

As for the "Holy See erecting a Patriarchate", dream on, we've waited over 400 years. Rome has only erected patriarchates in very small churches which are politically/ecumenically/ numerically insignificant in Rome's big picture.

Well, we must admit that Bartholomew does not lack for chutzpah! [so go look it up in a Yiddish dictionary] Reminds me of that famous inscription: "God is dead! - Nietzsche - Nietzsche is dead! God!"
Incognitus

Dear Diak,

Yes, and I couldn't agree more.

I wish we didn't need to come to this conclusion, but it is the realistic one.

And perhaps what will happen is that this situation will allow all Ukrainians, Catholic and Orthodox, to forge closer links with each other.

In the end, we will be stronger and more united for it - rather than expect the "Rome's" to do this for us.

Alex

Dear Hritzko,

I've already dissed off Anthony - I'm not calling you the EP's "Amen Corner!"

Certainly, all Hierarchs should be shown the appropriate respect.

But since the EP has said what he has, perhaps we should just leave him alone for a while?

Alex

Dear Incongnitus,

AHA! How would anybody that is not from the NYC area know the Yiddish word 'chutzpah' so commonly used in these parts? Could it be that I have narrowed down your location???

Curiously yours,
Alice

Dear Alice,

The expression 'chutzpah' pretty much made it's way in to the North American vernacular many moons ago (ie: ya dozent av ta be from Nu Yark ta get it)

A Jewish friend of mine once gave me this definition for CHUTZPAH:

A person murders his parents, is then captured, tried, and found guilty of the crime. He then begs for mercy from the court because he is an orphan. oye vey !

The EC message has been spreading like a wild fire throughout our North American, European, and homeland communities. Believe me when I tell you that the side trip to Istanbul, Turkey is being reconsidered as I write (ie: it dosen't have a snowball's chance in hell of happening).

Many people now believe that it's time the Greeks stopped pretending Istanbul was their homeland when everyone knows it's belongs to the Turks. The Turks won it fair and square, and have been respectual of all things byzantine.

I have heard that there are plans to meet with senior Turkish government officials to discuss an appropriate replacement for the position of EC Patriarch. Apparently the Turks are eager to replace the EC of Istanbul. Just as the Vatican finally installed a non Italian as Pope, they feel it is time for the GOC to do the same. Things certainly are heating up.

Dear Hritzko,

Okay, okay, so maybe I am wrong, or maybe I am just 'mishugana'...but you can't blame me for trying to pinpoint our dear incognito friend Incongnitus!

All the best!
Alice

OK, OK, I understand this.

This is all percisely why the tradionalist romanists scowl at ecumenical dialog. Who would deny that the UGC has a right within the Catholic Church to have all the spiritual benefits of the Church? So the pope is forced to make concessions to ministers outside of the Catholic Church for hope of a future good. He must do a current evil for the hope of future good or risk the loss of future good. Now, he believes that the ends do not justify the means, so he is going to be reluctant to employ unjust means for a greater end, but what is it?

Take the Russians, for example. Offering a dialog that could potentially lead to union the Russian Orthodox hope to chase Rome out of Russia. But from Romes point of view the people of Russia deserve the opportunity to be part of the Catholic Church with all the Spiritual benefits proper to that. She doesn't have the ability to agree to not preach the gospel anymore than she has the ability to add an eighth sacrement--it just isn't allowed because she has been commanded to preach the gospel. She can't forget about people to dialog with an institution, and that puts her in a very difficult position.

If the Orthodox Patriarch of "Second Rome" wishes to, or is politically forced to deny the rights of Catholics to have the riches of the apostolic Church, I should say shame on him! In wishing Catholics to keep their hands off, he is wishing Catholics to be bad Catholics. I do not wish Catholics to be bad Catholics.

About giving Churches to the Orthodox, yes, that makes me feel sick inside, when I think about it. But, if Rome has become irreligious and have not need of those Churches and (indeed) cannot maintain them, and if the options were that they
1) fall into ruin remaining Catholic sacred buildings
2) are torn down and the land sold
or
3) are converted into other buildings
or
4) are given to be used with love and respect by the Orthodox, I gladly give my vote to four. It may help the bond of Charity, which is excellent. It will keep the Church used as a sacred space where the mysteries are celebrated. It may also be actually used instead of being merle a relic. I don't know the situation, but I like to think that the Rome is not hurting herself, but giving out of her excess because of these bad times that we live in.

Garrett,

It was given on permanent loan to the Bulgarian Orthodox

Pope\'s Meeting with Bulgarian Patriarch [standartnews.com]

There is also a Monastery in Rome shared by Benedictine and Romanian Orthodox monks

East Meets West In Rome [touchstonemag.com]

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

The article 'East meets West' was wonderful!
Thank you so much for bringing it to our attention.

Rome is such a special, special place. I long for the day to return to uncover all the holy sites of shared patrimony which it entails.

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

Alice,

I'm glad you enjoyed it; I ran across it by accident a year or so ago and bookmarked it because I thought it was such a real example of Christianity and ecumenism.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Alice,

Our parish priest, Fr. Bohdan Lypsky, was ordained a priest by a Greek Catholic bishop - a former Greek Orthodox bishop who came into communion with Rome.

When his confreres got wind of this, they put him in a barrel and threw him into the Bosphorus . . .

Just a note when next you are praising the beauty of Rome's churches and shrines in the company of Orthodox Christians . . .

Alex