www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople is against UGCPatiarchate

Dear Lauro,

Only if Rome acknowledges our patriarchate!

And I hope the revered Incognitus and others here aren't getting too worked up about we cannot yet know.

Time will tell. But don't hold your breath, guys!

What will happen is that they might get upset and wind up going after me, rather than being mad at the Vatican, Cardinal Kasper etc.

That's the true Ukrainian way, after all!

Alex

Dear Alex,
What you say may be true, but there hasn't been so much news about our church internationally for a long time and the MP's seem to be worried. A lot of people are running around and they're kind of lost. Unfortunately I would think that it's time for our Patriarch to purchase a bullet proof vest and start hiring some security professionals. I'm not joking either. Think about it, Patriarch Husar is not only threatening a specific religious group up North but a pretty big population that still has imperialistic views in reference to Ukraine as a whole, yes I'm talking politically as well. If a Ukrainian Patriarchate is officially recognized not necessarilly by the Vatican but by the Ukrainian Government, than the Russian imperialistic dream of controlling Ukraine spiritually and politically will be flushed down the toilet. Would this be a case for international crisis? In the past it would, and I'm pretty sure that war would have been declared.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

Well, I'm still confused myself at how Ukrainians see the Patriarchate issue.

Is it a religious thing? A national thing? What is it?

President Kuchma invited the Pope to Ukraine to help his own political career when he was under attack. Kuchma truly recognizes ONLY the UOC-MP in Ukraine.

I don't see how the Ukrainian government could "recognize" the UGCC Patriarchate (?) In what way? And in what way that would make sense ecclesially?

Russia will also NEVER give up its pretensions to the Kyivan tradition.

This is because its own Church is based on the Kyivan tradition.

That's O.K. as far as it goes - but then again Moscow insists that there can only be ONE heir to that tradition - and it's not Ukraine, from its point of view.

Even the Vatican acknowledged that Moscow is the heir to the tradition of St Volodymyr - we've been through that whole matter of the letter etc. in 1988.

And while I can't find any journalistic sourcing for it today (not that I tried a whole lot) I do remember when Pope John Paul II, early in his pontificate, stirred up controversy when he referred to Moscow as the "Third Rome."

I remember attending some parish hall lectures about this by patriarchalists and there were reviews on the Ukie television programs.

The point is that Rome has always seen Moscow as the "Third Rome."

Alex

Many, many thanks to Alex for providing that information on the election of Metropolitan Andrian - seems to me like good news. Even better news is the greeting from Metropolitan Leonty of Bila Krynytsia and Archbishop Sophrony of Australia, Canada, and America - that would indicate that the "schism" is over before it started, so to speak, which is most definitely good news. Glory to God for all things!
I wonder if they've produced a video of the Sobor and/or the enthronement services.
Incognitus (didn't know I was particularly worth revering, but thanks for the compliment)

Ipreima's comments concerning security may appear somewhat exagerated to some, but a true concern to anyone living in Ukraine.

There is a long history of Moscow sending agents to assassinate any individuals who are promoting some form of independance for Ukraine from the Russian Empire. Today, the former agents of the KGB (and/or communist party) will for a nominal amount of money kill an opponent (political, business, etc...). The atmosphere is very much like the underworld of Chicago circa 1920-something.

Patriarch Husar has body guards. Further, I do not believe that any government or political party which opposes him would have him killed. There would be a complete loss of legitimacy in the eyes of the world for the rulling government, and this is something they do not want to happen. IMHO, they go so far as to supply their own 'secret service' to protect the Patriarch.

If a foreign government was to have him killed, then this would only serve to unite ALL Ukrainians even more. So it probably would not happen either.

Ipreima's question does bring to ligth my concern with the 'rush rush' crusade of certain individuals in regards to the creation of a united (UGCC + UOC + UAOC) Patriarchate in Ukraine.

Clearly Patriarch Lubomyr could fill the shoes, and also act as a perfect Patriarch for North America since he has lived there also. He is a unique individual could probably do more for our churches than almost any other individual on earth.

What if Patriarch was suddenly called to the lord. Then what ?
How would the proverbial 'cards play out' ?
Who would become the new leader ?
Would the new leader be as able ?
Would government agents (domestic and foreign) try to usurp power from the new united church by promoting and eventually electing a specific candidate ?

To make a long story short, I have seen clear signs that the UOC-MP is being lured into the new Super Ukrainian Orthodox Church (SUOC) It is possible that in a United Orthodox Church with Patriarch lubomyr no longer with us that a senior prelate from the UOC-MP could become the head of the new Church.

I believe that it is prudent for us to take one step at a time, establish clear lines of succession, maintain ties with Rome, break ties with Moscow, and seek to establish a relationship with the EU. So the next time somebody flashes "ONE PATRIARCH" on this forum again, I ask that you start asking them some of these questions.

I'm all for a united church, but under what conditions, and established by whom ?

Dear Friends,

Really, let's just stand by and see what will happen.

Don't "hex" matters with predictions and assumptions!

And, believe me, I really HATE telling people "I told you so."

You have to believe me . . .

(Revered Incognitus - you are welcome!)

Alex

Hritzko, as you have mentioned, many here must have said that I was crazy or going too far.
I really honestly don't think so. Let's not forget of the Ruskie fanatics that are running around and even recently sent a couple of nut jobs to beat up an Orthodox Protodeacon of the Kievan Patriarchate in Odesa for no reason whatsoever just because they felt that he was some kind of threat to the MP's. There are many facts such as these. Husar is much more of a so called "threat" to Russian Imperialistic Orthodoxy than any other bishop, priest, protodeacon, what have you and it's very easy for the Ukie government and or even our neighbors up North to put the blame simply on a poor FANATIC, and with this they would even persuade some of our dear friends in the Vatican as well that this was simply an unfortunate mishap as they have done with other political leaders and news reporters. All that I'm saying is that this is very possible. God forbid.
Lauro

Dear Alex,

You are correct about this matter. We should also remember that our UGCC confessor-Patriarch Ioseph Slipyj was offered the title ROC Patriarch for Russia on several occassions and he refused. The Soviets offered him this title in an attempt to legitimize the ROC.

The last occassion was after spending 18 years in a Siberian hard labour camp, and just prior to his deportation from the Soviet Union to the West in the early 1960's.

RP,

Slava Isusu Christu. May the mercy and love of Jesus Christ be with all of us. Please forgive me but I am having trouble with your post. As an American, I approve truly and totally of the use of Free Speech, but when I see comments that I could misconstrue as slanderous and heretical, then I feel the submitter of these comments should be allowed to provide his sources for these claims. I am of German origin and find difficulty with your comment regarding "German Bishops". Bishops have been chosen to lead the flocks and I for one have the faith that they will do this with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I realize that Cardinal Kasper may not be the most popular person right now with some of the members of this chat board, but to make the comment:

"Kasper doesn't even believe in the RESURECTION OF CHRIST!!!!! This man puts ECUMENISM before FAITH. "
--requires submissionof valid proof, not opinions.

I utilize this forum to learn more deeply the truths of our beautiful religion, but when I read posts such as yours, it gives me pause for thought that this may not be the proper place for me. Based on previous posts that I have observed submitted by your member name, written comments about ethnic nationalities appears to be a valid recurring theme. I am still new here but I feel it is time to pray that you please be more attentive in your posts and try to steer away from Ethnic comments. We are all One People under Christ our Lord, and where we were born was a matter of fate, and not of choice.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless us all and may the Holy Spirit guide the hands and minds of all who post here.

Michael (a sinner)

May one ask how long YOU would remain in the Church for accusing the Cardinal of not believing in the Resurrection (and thus, not in the Divinity of Christ?). There are Canons concerning making accusations without proof against Bishops....

Gaudior, asking you to please wipe the foam from your mouth before posting again.

RP,

You have made an accusation that Cardinal Kasper denies the Resurrection of Christ. Please either back up your accusation with specific references or retract your accusations with an apology to Cardinal Kasper for falsely accusing him.

Acceptable documentation of your accusation means legitimate news sources (Zenit, Catholic News Service, CWNews, and etc.).

Please provide and post this information in this thread before posting again on the Forum. If you do not comply within 24 hours you will loose all posting privileges.

Admin

*Takes a sip of whisky and open gob"

I don't know...all this talks of clandestine meetings, of Russian sending in assassins...are you implying that the MP is somehow involved in this? No matter the differences that existed between the Patriarch of Moscow and the Major-Archbishop, I don't think relations are that bad.

What are Ukranianian comments of the UOP-MP? Not that you see it as a Russian Imperialist vehicle or what not....rather, what kind of work do they do amongst the people? What do people think of the Metropolitan? Is he respected? Seen as a stoodge? Thanks

Anton

P.S. Somehow Cardinal Kasper - well I see him as a friendly ghost! - doesn't appear to be in the same league as former Bishop Spong of the Episcopalians....

Dear Anton,

Actually, Met. Vladimir of Kyiv is widely respected in Ukraine and especially among the autocephalist Orthodox bishops, most of whom had him as their professor at one time or another.

The UOC-MP, to be perfectly fair, has done MORE on behalf of promoting Orthodox Christianity in Ukraine than its autocephalist counterparts.

Only the UOC-MP is glorifying the as yet unsung saints and martyrs of Ukraine, as well as the miraculous Icons that kept the faith of the people alive during the Soviet Yoke.

The UOC-MP has been getting support from the Kyivan government, of course, but the fact that it is there, front and centre, to do things like distribute crosses and icons to soldiers departing for Iraq, outreach to seniors and children etc. says a lot about it.

Met. Vladimir Sabodan would, in fact, make a better Orthodox Patriarch of Kyiv and all Rus'-Ukraine than Patriarch Filaret.

The divisions within Ukrainian Orthodoxy have resulted, among other things, in the anomalous situation of many people who define themselves as "Orthodox Christians" and yet who say they are not a member of ANY Orthodox jurisdiction, canonical or what-not.

And the constant bickering between the canonical Orthodox and the (to use the style of Fr. Vasilii of the Onion Dome) "so-to-call-it Keeyeven pettreearkhet . . . ahem" is unseemly.

Who do they think they are?

The Byzantine Forum?

Alex

Dear Anton,

I too do not see Cardinal Kasper as an evil person. He is simply voicing an opinion within the Roman Catholic Church. His opinion will be taken into consideration by the Pontif, and then a decision will be made and made known to the UGCC. If there is no response within 6 months after the Ukrainian presidential elections, then there will be a unilateral move by the UGCC. Kasper is a definitely a friendly 'spirit' - he is just doing his job.

Although I do not think that the Moscow Patriarch would be involved in any direct orders to eliminate (assasinate) the UGCC Patriarch, there is a chance that others may not be as charitable.

If you think the assasination comments are bogus, just remember the early 1980's near fatal attempt on the life of the Holy Father John Paul 2.
It did not take Interpol too long to trace the attempt on his life to the secret police of the Soviet Union (KGB).

The reasons for snuffing out Patriarch Lubomyr of the UGCC would be IDENTICAL (albeit on a smaller scale) to those used to eliminate the Roman Catholic pontif. Just as John Paul 2 was (and remains) very popular and was a threat to the Russian Empire, so is Patriarch Lubomyr Husar (albeit on a much smaller scale).

The Russians play by their rules, and they may have some of the most advanced weapons in their arsenal for their needs.

For example, the Russians may not choose to be so open and instead opt for a more secret weapon such as the one they used on Stephan Bandera (Ukrainian Nationalist leader in exile) in 1959 when they assasinated him in Munich with a secret poison. The poison was released as a mist in close proximity to Mr Bandera. He died almost instantaneously from what appeared to be a heart attack. If it were not for the fact that the circumstances of his death were very similar to that of Lev Rebet (another Ukie nationalist leader) who died two years earlier, then Stephan Bandera's death would probably have been reported as a heart attack and that would have been the end of it. Instead, the German police were tipped off and they conducted an intensive investigation and discovered that in fact he had been poisonned, and as a result died of a heart attack. The poison used had never been seen before and for this reason was undetectable.

My father told me this story 20 years ago and I said "yeah sure dad - Soviet secret weapons in Munich ". Then about 5 years ago I was watching a 'History channel' special about "the secret weapons of the Soviet Union's KGB " and there it was - the whole story just like my father told me , including the awarding of the top Soviet medal of honour to the agent who was sent from Russia on direct orders from the Politburo.

If you feel that any of my comments need to be sourced, including those about the Moscow Patriarch, please ask at any time. They are always based on what I read in newspapers, journals, and magazines.

Hritzko

Its one thing for secular authorities to do it...its another for religous one. I was merely questioning the idea that the MP would even contemplate doing away with enemies. COmmunists or former communists are a whole different breed - note poor Georgi Markov and the poisoned umbrella....


Anton