www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople is against UGCPatiarchate

Dear Alex,

I get the message!

But I speak the truth, and if an Orthodox brother or sister does not like it, 'tough'!!!

Rome is truly the eternal city, and it exudes a spiritual aura that is hard to pinpoint.

May God bless and protect this ancient city of history and Christianity, the city of the seat of the Apostle Peter, always.

I pray that God will enable me to return soon.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

I fear you are sorely tempting me to become a Roman Catholic, ultra-montanist and extra-papalistic!!

. . . O.K., the temptation has passed!

As Shakespeare wrote, "Rome and roome enough!"

God bless you!

Alex

Here's an example of Scottish chutzpah. A Scotsman offered his daughter a shilling if she would help the family economize, by eating no supper. She accepted, put the shilling under her pillow, and went to sleep. In the night, her father came into her room and put the shilling in his own pocket. The next morning, he gave his daughter no breakfast, because she hadn't taken care of her money!
If you think chutzpah is confined to New York, think again!

Incognitus

After Communism failed in Eastern Europe, Eastern Catholicism would have got an enormous rennaissance in Romania, Russia, Belarus and even Serbia. People were tired of Churches who obbeyed the government more than Jesus Christ. Greek Catholic Churches in countries like Romania had legitimacy and prestige all around the world.

But the restoration of Greek Catholicism in all its strenght failed because Rome gave its back to their leaders. This restoration would have been possitive for the Orthodox, because after a breve moment of broken relations between Catholics and Orthodox, many Orthodox would have realized that their religious leaders did wrong by supporting cold war values (The would gave said "bye bye" Patriarch Teoctist and Alexis II!).

I have to admit that all the concessions come from Rome: Ecumenical gatherings, devolution of icons, sharing churches with Orthodox, etc. Catholics in western countries are very nice with the Orthodox while the poor catholics in Greece face permanent hostility. No European Orthodox leader has done anything else to improve relations with Catholicism, and a dialogue for the restoration of a certain sacramental unity in "extreme circunstances" which existed under Communism.

I suppose Patriarch Alexei by asking the Pope not to recognize the Kyivan Pariachate must have something to give in retribution. Otherwise it's no sense for Pope John Paul II to continue being so nice. It catches my atention that now it's all about the Ukrainian Patriarchate and the ROC has forgot the dozens of Charismatic "Catholic" missions operating in Russia.

I think the patriarch of Moscow is offering a case of his best Vodka in retribution.

I personally feel that we should unite with the UAOC and the UOC-KP. According to statistics, this would be one of the, if not, the largest Orthodox Church. Patriarch Josyf dreamed of this. We need to do something. Let's face it, Rome is not helping us. If all will continue going as it is, many will go over to the KP. The canonical issue is not a real issue to the average Joe. Besides, when Patriarch Filaret reposes in the Lord, his successor will be able to start dialogue about recognition because he will not have the "amaphema" haunting him. (Filaret's anaphema was from the MP and the reasons are shaky, Filaret gave up much so that a Ukrainian Church existed. MP doesnt like this!)
Lets pray for Ukrainian Unity.
Once this happens, what will happen to the Basillians and their Bishops, this will be intersting to see (hopefully we wil be in that situation some day.)

Dear PatriarKhat:

I admire your Ukrainian chutzpah, but is this not stretching it a bit?

Any one worth his salt knows that the Russian Orthodox Church, with a population base of around 145 million, about 3 times that of the Ukrainian population, IS the largest Orthodox Church and will remain so, unless you intend to colonize and subjugate Moscow?

Based on current statistics compiled by CNEWA on the Eastern Churches, the Russian Orthodox Church has about 90 million faithful, almost twice the ENTIRE population of Ukrayina!

A reality check is somehow needed to temper one's expectations!

AmdG

Dear Amado,

Please read the article-interview with Fr. Robert Taft in the news section of the forum. Please also read some of the comments and then we can discuss 'reality checks'.

In regards to the statistics you mentioned, please note that these have been provided by the Russian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate. The same church that has it's Metropolitans hand out awards to the communist party leadership of Ukraine and Russia. The communists by the way are the only reason for an almost complete lack of Christianity as we know it in Russia, and even ineastern Ukraine.

The proof can now be seen in Western Europe where millions of Ukrainians and Russians have emigrated over the past decade. The Ukrainian churches are packed and new missions are being established in every corner of the continent. The Russian churches as a rule are pretty much empty.

I hope to hear from you later in the day.

Hritzko

Dear Hritzko:

If we are talking about which of the 4 jurisdictions in Ukraine (UOC-MP, UOC-KP, UAOC, and UGCC) has the most members practicing in relation to the number of total adherents, then the UGCC trumps everybody else as Fr. Taft suggests in his interview.

All the more if the UGCC unites with UOC-KP and UAOC, which, by the way, was my own suggestion elsewhere to counter the UOC-MP and the ROC.

Compare this to the statement of PatriarKhat and some others before him.

I think many of us here are all for the establishment of your Patriarchate; but please refrain from overblowing the basis(es) of your claims.

AmdG

What we always do. We put their official residences (homes) up for sale and their belongings on the doorstep when they are away.

Honestly, I have never seen our people more united on a single issue (except independance for Ukraine). Even the very Americanized / Canadianized UGCC members want to see our churches as one Orthodox entity with a Kyivan Patriarch for 'Ukraine and all Rus'. We must be whole again so that we can proceed with the re-evangelization of eastern Ukraine and then beyond it's borders.

A Patriarchate will happen before the end of the year, probably by the summer.

Dear Amado,

If you read the article carefully, you will notice that father Taft refers to eastern Christianity statistics as an "oxymoron". Why ? becaue these people are not Christians.

Thanks to the communists, the Eastern Christians are in large pits all over the country, Siberia, and elsewhere. In more recent times the communist party and some PC's turned businessmen-mafiosa have registered much of the eastern population into the UOC-MP (Mucovite Orthodox Church) for political / financial purposes.

For example, when the world AIDS association begins collaborating with churches, mosques, etc.. for the global relief and care of people with the disease the ROC-MP will say that it has the most adherants and therefore it should be the sole manager of the 10's of MILLIONS of dollars it receives annually for this purpose. But just like all other foreign aid, this money will make it's way to the communists and the CP's turned businessmen-mafia. Before you know it, you will hear even more Russian on the exclusive beaches of the French Rivierra, West Palm Beach, Sydney, etc.... The people with AIDS in Ukraine, will of course die slow painfull deaths.

The vast majority of the ROC-MP may visit a church once a year very much like tourists do - ah geez aren't those icons just beautifull. They may get married in a church, but that's it. The elderly people who do worship with some regularity, are generally older Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine who have little to say in what type of church they are going to pray in.

Ukrainian government statistics will support these statements, but in an indirect way so as not to antagonize the communists and the PC's turned businessmen-mafiosa.

If however, you mean to say that the population of Ukraine is 48 million and European Russia is about 86 million, I would say yes our neighboors population is about twice that of Ukraine.

But if you are telling me that there are twice or three times as many practicing ROC members (Ukraine and European Russia combined) as there are compared to the total of the UGCC, UOC-KP, and the UAOC, then I would say - you are wrong. This is fact and not "overblowing the basis of our claim".

AGAIN - PLEASE RE-READ THE TAFT ARTICLE.

THE ROC-MP OF THE PREREVOLUTION RUSSIAN EMPIRE IS NO MORE.

Here are the stats by communities:
UGCC-3317
UOC-KP-2781
UAOC-1015

Probable United Ukrainian Patriarchate= 7113

UOC-MP has 9000 but most are just empty churches: I've seen this with my own eyes.

Add the UOC of USA and UOC of Canada and UAOC of western Europe

We give the UOC-MP a run for their money!

Dear Amadeo,
Am delighted to note that chutzpah is also to be found in Chicago! But do Ukrainians really appreciate the joys of Yiddish?
Incognitus

Rumor has it that Archbishop Vsevolod is the Chief Schlepper of Chicago. Can this be true?
Incognitus

Hritzko,

it's fine that you are critical of the Moscow Patriarchates relationship to the Soviet Authorities in the past, and to the Ukrainian Church toady, but I think you're going too far in your hate-campaign agaist all things Russian.

To say that Christianity as we know it as allmost non-existant in Russia and that all the Russian churches are empty is simply ridiculous!

Your post about the "economic interests" of the ROC-MP reeks of hatered! Keep in mind that if you make such serious accusations against an Orthodox Bishop you must be prepared to prove them unless you want to be guilty of slander!

A person can actually be a faithful Orthodox Christian even if he or she doesn't have a pure Western Ukrainian blood line, and even if he or she pronounces "Hospodi pomilui" with a hard G!

Moderation, my friend, moderation!!!

Christian

PS: "THE ROC-MP OF THE PREREVOLUTION RUSSIAN EMPIRE IS NO MORE."

Neighter does the Church of Kyivan Rus!