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Dec 29th, 2019
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Orthodox Leader Says Ukrainian Patriarchate Would Cause Problems
02.04.04 (RISU.org.ua) � ROME (CNS) -- If the Vatican was to recognize the patriarchate of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Catholic-Orthodox relations would return to a "climate of hostility," said the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox churches. Ecumenical Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople wrote to Pope John Paul II to urge the pope not to elevate the status of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Patriarch Bartholomew's letter, dated Nov. 29, was posted in Greek on the patriarch's Web site, apparently before it was delivered to the Vatican. After translating the letter, the Italian Catholic magazine �30 Giorni� distributed copies of its article Feb. 2 to reporters in Rome.
�30 Giorni� also reported that Patriarch Bartholomew had planned to go to Rome in mid-February to inaugurate the city's new Greek Orthodox parish; Pope John Paul has given the community exclusive use of the historic St. Theodore Church on the Palatine Hill.
You know, I really feel sad when I read articles such as these. I feel that we Ukrainians have been abandoned. It's as though everyone is against us and that nobody stands by our side. I ask all of you, not only Ukrainians, What is it that we are doing wrong? What must be done?
Lauro
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I have always been surprised by the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew's stance toward Greek Catholics in general. He studied in Rome, is incredibly involved with ecumenical activities and the Vatican, yet he seems to be rather anti-Eastern Catholic.
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I think that the whole Patriarchate thing is like a big chess game. The GOC of Athens is perceived as usurping power from the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. The Kyivan Patriarchate is perceived as usurping power from the Moscow based leader. Catholicism is perceived to be usurping from Orthodoxy. It's possible that the situation is related to the old saying "an enemy of yours, is a friend of mine" but I do not think this is the case.
What I do find hypocritical is that the Ecumenical Patriarch was screaming at the top of his lungs that "Turks were barbarians". I think you all remember the post a few weeks ago. He made this statement in reference to the generations of cruelty to which Greeks were subjected to under the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Yet he has not been able to show the same respect and consideration to the UGCC and the people of Ukraine who have suffered under the Soviet / Russian Empire. He should have remained neutral or at least somewhat suportive (ie: a solution can be found in the next 1 o 2 years) but instead appears to be supporting the ROC.
Again, what the UGCC needs to attain a Patriarchate is a Ukrainian President who is not affraid to stand up to President Putin and his still to be de-Stalinized ROC. Once we have this in place, the Vatican will officially gives it's blessing to the Kyivan Patriarchate. The new presidential elections are later this year.
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Speaking as an "adopted" Ukrainian (thru the beneficence of Alex), a serious gut check of reality should be undertaken.
The Ukrainian Church is sadly divided into the UOC-MP, UOC-KP, UOAC (or UAOC?), UGCC, and the Latin Riters.
Is it unreasonable to expect from all sides to exert serious efforts at unifying first THE Ukrainian Church into ONE national Church before a Kyivan Patriarchate is pursued?
Acceding to the UGCC's ardent desire to be recognized as THE Patriarchate only throws another monkey wrench into the already strength-sapping dilemma.
I think Rome should not be faulted for judiciously exercising some caution. Nor the EP!
AmdG
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i understand Pope John Paul II wants to be on good terms worth the orthodox churches to increase the possibility of re-union, and ecumenism is good as far as peace and understanding goes but..i think rome has done more than enough these past years as far as making concessions goes...the catholic church has to decide it cant please everyone and should focus on catholic affairs. i think the ukrainian catholic church deserves to be elevated as a patriarchate of kiev, despite what orthodox patriarchs of bishops say. plus isnt the new cathedral is being built in kiev anyways?
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I want to know why John Paul II keeps giving Roman churches to the Orthodox, who'll only cease ecumenical discussion when the Catholic Church formally recognizes the head of the UGCC as a patriarch.
So, it seems that we are losing beautiful Catholic churches in Rome (remember the Bulgarian or Romanian one a few months ago) as well as ecumenical relations with the party to whom we are donating these churches (or use of them, at least) when the Ukrianian Patriarchate is eventually recognized.
Looks like a lose-lose situation to me!
Logos Teen
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What I do find hypocritical is that the Ecumenical Patriarch was screaming at the top of his lungs that "Turks were barbarians". That was Christodoulos, Archbishop of Athens, not Patriarch Bartholomew. If +Bartholomew said that, he'd be kicked outta Istanbul so fast it'd make his head spin.  Logos Teen
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Actualy it is Patriarch Bartholomew who must elevate the see of Kiev to the status of Patriarchate, recognize the autocephaly of a united Ukrainian Church, and support the independence of Ukraine as a country and as a Church with its own identity.
His All Holliness travels all around the world supporting the autodetermination, etc. the autonomy of churches and their participation in national life, and does not do the same in Ukraine.
This is understandable as the MP is very hostile to the EP and the Ukrainians. It's an institution without moral authority and legitimacy. It's unfortunate that because of politics, so many Orthodox Churches continue to defend their status in Eastern Europe without condemning the atrocities they supported, the persecution against priests and bishops and the virtual apostasy of so many hierarchs there.
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The Greek letter from the EP can be found at:
Σεπ&...p;#957;ία(29/11/2003). [ ec-patr.gr] And here is a Zenit article on the matter: Bartholomew I Opposes a Greek-Catholic Patriarchate in Ukraine
Orthodox Warns Pope of Break in Ecumenical Ties
ISTANBUL, Turkey, FEB. 4, 2004 (Zenit.org).- Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople has asked John Paul II not to establish a Greek-Catholic patriarchate in Kiev, Ukraine, warning him of the risk of a break in ecumenical relations.
The patriarch's request came in a letter, published in Greek in the patriarchate's Web page, which discusses a document presented by Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, to Alexy II, patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.
Alexy II sent the document, which alludes to the eventual recognition of a patriarchal title for the Ukrainian Greek-Catholics, to Orthodox patriarchs.
In the letter dated Nov. 29, Bartholomew I rejects Cardinal Kasper's document, labeling it "erroneous, confused, unacceptable, provocative," and after a lengthy refutation of the cardinal's historical-canonical document, warns about the possible negative consequences of an eventual recognition of a patriarchal title for the Greek-Catholic Church in Ukraine.
"[It] will cause strong reactions on the part of all the Orthodox sister Churches and will put a stop to attempts to continue the theological dialogue between the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches," the Italian magazine 30 Giorni reported.
In his letter to the Pope, Bartholomew I said there is a danger "of returning to the climate of hostility that reigned up to a few decades ago."
"Therefore," the patriarch wrote, "it is necessary that you assure the Ukrainian people and all the Orthodox Churches with persuasive force that you have no intention of initiating the institution of the Greek-Catholic Patriarchate in Ukraine as Cardinal Kasper's text alludes."
The issue relates to the matter of "Uniatism," a pejorative term applied by the Orthodox to refer to the Greek-Catholic Churches, such as that of Ukraine. The latter belongs to the Byzantine tradition -- as do the Orthodox -- and at the same time is in full communion with the Successor of Peter. The majority of the population of Ukraine is Orthodox and under the Russian patriarchate.
Recognition of the primacy of Peter is a key point in the discussion between Eastern-rite Ukrainian Catholics (who number about 5 million) and the Orthodox.
Recognizing the level of development reached by its Church, the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Synod's plenary assembly, held in Kiev in July 2002, asked the Holy Father to sanction this process by granting it the patriarchal title.
According to the conciliar decree "Orientalium Ecclesiarum" on the Catholic Eastern Churches, a pope has the faculty to recognize on his own initiative the patriarchal rank of a Church without having to submit this recognition to the consensus of other ecclesial authorities.
The Catholic-Orthodox dialogue has two events planned: Cardinal Kasper is scheduled to meet with Alexy II in two weeks; and Bartholomew I recently said he would visit the Pope on the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul, in June.
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dear Guys: I shouldn't worry too much about public statements like this that His All Holiness the EP has to make. Of course he is going to oppose a Patriarchate for the UGCC; he has too, given his position. What else could he practically say, given the realpolitik of the situation. Otherwise, His All Holiness riskes getting "royal heck" from all the anti-ecumenical Orthodox and an excommunication from His all Holiness Pat. Alexy. Plus the EP risks the MP saying that the EP is no longer Orthodox and that now the True first among equals is Moscow since the 2d Rome has now fallen a 2d time. If he supported the UGCC in any way, not to mention re the question of the Patriarchate, he would be seen as betraying the MP and the Orthodox in Ukraine. This is not inconsistent from what he said when he went to the US a few years ago. This is his public position speaking for all Orthodoxy. It would be great were it otherwise and the EP (and all Orthodoxy) were to come out in support of the UGCC, but unlikely in the present moment. But this does not mean that he is  Whereas I shall be eternally grateful for his help and support of the UGCC. His all Holiness the EP was a REAL help to the UGCC when the Eparchy of Toronto was in big trouble. Bishop Vsevolod (of the EP's Holy Synod) accompanied us our Eparch to see the EP and came to support us and on behalf of the Orthodox, publically apologized for wrongs done by Ukrainian Orthodox to the Ukrainian Greek Catholics. Herb
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Dear Hritzko, What I do find hypocritical is that the Ecumenical Patriarch was screaming at the top of his lungs that "Turks were barbarians". You have got your Greeks confused! That quote is attributed to Archbishop Christodoulos, Archbishop of Athens and All Greece! In Christ, Alice
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Thanks, Alice. Your post is just like mine a few posts above...except I put into a little something about the Turkish government and +Bartholomew. Logos Teen
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Originally posted by Teen Of The Incarnate Logos:
So, it seems that we are losing beautiful Catholic churches in Rome (remember the Bulgarian or Romanian one a few months ago) as well as ecumenical relations with the party to whom we are donating these churches (or use of them, at least) when the Ukrianian Patriarchate is eventually recognized.
Looks like a lose-lose situation to me!
Logos Teen Losing beautiful Catholic Churches to the ORthodox in a city dominated by Catholic Churches????????????? Oh Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Dear Teen:
Rome has thousands of churches and there are untold numbers of them that remain empty.
I think that we can spare a few as religious centres for the Orthodox in Rome.
Anyhow I don't think that the Churches were an outright gift but more like a loan.
If the Orthodox decide to leave the churches, perhaps build their own, they will not have the right to sell the property or tear them down.
defreitas
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