www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople is against UGCPatiarchate

Dear OrthodoxSWE,

I must first congratulate you on the clarity of your English. It has improved 10 fold from last month. It's almost as if you had a ghost writer, or maybe Berlitz courses ?

(1) Contrary to what you state in your first paragraph, I'm never critical of Moscow Patriarchate in regards to it's past relationship with Soviet Authorities. Furthermore, I'm not critical of the ROC-KM / UOC-KP's relationshiop with Soviet Authorities in the past either.

Our philosophy is one of reconcilliation. People did what they had to do to survive during the Soviet era and in the end it's up to God to judge who was evil.

What we seek is the ability to break with the horrific and brutal past of Russian imposed communism. We will continue to be very critical of Russian imposed communism and those who collaborate with this evil which killed 7 - 10 million Ukrainian citizens in 1932 - 1933 alone. There have been some excellent scholars who have published about this topic (including Harvard University here in the Boston area).

Question:

Do you believe being critical of the NAZIs is a hate campaign against all things German ?

If the NAZIS had invaded and occupied Sweeden for 50 years, would it be today 'anti-German' to condem them for their brutality ?

(2) I'm confident that there are Russian Orthodox Churches which have standing room only. This of course would greatly support the 'pewless philosophy' of so many of our readers.

Anyone who has travelled to eastern Ukraine or Russia in the last 10 years will tell you that as Fr. Taft states eastern Christianity statistics (ie: church membership) is an "oxymoron". The people and their progeny who were practicing Christians before the revolution were killed by the MILLIONS and can be found in unmarket pits (you notice I did not say graves) throughout Ukraine, Russian, Siberia, etc....

The vast majority of poeple today in Russia have no knowledge of their historical religion - Orthodoxy. Most have never even been baptized. If you doubt this, I suggest that you take a month tour of the lands I mentioned and make an assesment for yourself.

The same can be said about much of eastern Ukraine. You access Ukrainian government statistics in regards to baptisms, church attendance, etc... It will support what I have stated.

As a rule, the Russian Orthodox Churches in much of eastern Ukraine are empty, even for Sunday devine liturgy services. I have seen this for myself.

There is also indirect evidence of this. Over the past 10 years, a total of millions of Eastern Europeans have made their way into Western Europe. The Ukrainian churches are packed and the Russian Churches empty. Why ? The Russians no longer have a sense of being Orthodox Christians, the Ukrainians do.

(3) If I'm guilty of slander - Sue me !
I would welcome the opportunity of going to a world court to expose the CONTINUED (remember I don't care about the past) cooperation between the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine and the Communists. There are ample examples of the communists collaborating with the Russian Orthodox Church to enrich themselves.

Canada's most prestigious national newspaper the Globe & Mail recently published an article concerning the Russian Orthodox Church and the Communist Party of Russia's participation in the trade of contraband. Interpol and other international police agencies have also put both groups on their list of major crime organizations.

Can you arrange a public trial in regards to what I, interpol, and several major and reputable newspapers have stated concerning both the Russian Orthodox Church and the communist ? I would welcome the law suit. I have several friends who work for major news groups and they would have a 'hoot' seing me on trial and would be very happy to cover the story (internationally).

(4) I would never fault somebody for pronouncing "hospodi pomilui" in a manner they felt appropriate. I have been to many UGCC churches around the world, and believe me I have heard the divine liturgy pronounced in many different ways. In fact, when I'm in Ukraine, people sometimes laugh at the way we pronounce our words in Ukrainian - but they have very high esteem for us because we bothered to learn their native language even though we were born abroad.

I would however fault an occupying force from not permitting the people to prounce and have liturgy in their native language.

Question:

Why are Ukrainians not permitted to have Ukrainian Orthodox Churches (with devine liturgy in Ukrainian) in the Russian Federation ?

(5) Unfortunatelly, as I mentioned the ROC-MP of pre-revolutionairy Russia no longer exists. There is no legitimate connection with the past. The people can be found in unmarked pits (you notice I did not say graves) all over the former Soviet Union.

Your statement that "neither does the Church of Kyivan Rus" is wrong. Our church sought refuge in the eastern rus lands of Cholm, Volyn, Halychyna. After 1945, the church was forced at gunpoint to join the ROC-MP. The true, pre-revolution church survived both undergroung (and they were persecuted for this) and abroad in the diaspora. The successor to this pas Kyivan Church has returned to Ukraine in the name of Patriarch Lubomyr Husar. The church is legitimate and a direct connection with Ukraine-Rus' millennium old Christian heritage.

We will continue to expose the ugly truth of how the Russian Orthodox Church continues to collaborate with the communists and their members turned 'businessmen-mafia'. Rather than condem a past collaboration with the communists, the Russian Orthodox Church chooses to give them awards "for services to the people and church". "Could you imagine the Roman Catholic Church giving awards to the NAZIs for services to the people and church ?

I'm sorry that you have interpreted this to be anti-Russian. We are no longer living in a Soviet era when one could be excused for believing communist propaganda. Today, there is ample evidence of the Russian Orthodox Church's involvement with organized crime in Ukraine, Russian, and around the world. This is not an anti-Orthodox statement but a reality check in regards to that church's current status.

Dear Hritzko,

Well, it is inevitable that for Ukrainians to be critical of Moscow and the MP is to earn the title of "anti-Russian."

This is what the Administrator himself said I was back in December - a vicious assertion, as I perceived it, to which I responded in kind - all right, I shouldn't have - but I did by way of knee-jerk reaction.

Then there was that "Kyiv-Kiev" thingy, but since no Ukrainian here came to my public defence at the time - what can I as an individual do about it?

To say that all things Russian are somehow "great" with Ukrainians would be wrong too.

I know Irish who don't like English. I know Palestinians . . . you get the picture.

It is difficult for Ukies and other peoples of the former Soviet Union not to wince when Russian issues are brought up.

The "Soviet Man" ideology that was imposed on the "ethnic minorities" of the former USSR (read: "conquered nations") had a cultural component that Western commentators often conveniently forget about.

The Soviet Man (like the Nazi "Superman") spoke Russian and his cultural identity was Russian or "Pan-Russian" which came to the same thing.

"Soviet" was, for all intents and purposes, simply a synonym for "Russian." The Ukrainian communist movement, as you know, was snuffed out just as soon as the Russian communist armies, that they supported so eagerly, invaded and took over.

My wife's great uncle was a member of the Ukrainian communist party and was very much against the Greek-Catholic church. He tried to rouse the people against their parish priest in the village in which he lived - that parish priest was my grandfather.

His two sons, however, rejected their father's political views . . .

As the Soviet armies approached his village, that man, a convinced Ukrainian communist, went to my grandfather and asked for forgiveness - he then urged my grandfather to take his family of seven children and flee quickly - he knew the approximate time of the Red Army's arrival there.

He saved my grandfather's and my father's lives. He himself was executed by the Reds he so zealously defended.

And wherever the Red Army travelled, it brought the Russian Orthodox Church with it, just as the Tsarist armies had done in the previous century.

Today is different, yes. But the Russian Orthodox Church, the Moscow Patriarchate, has changed NOTHING in terms of its imperialist views toward the Ukrainian Churches.

The "UOC-MP" is but a vassal of the MP as it was in Soviet times. With respect to the UGCC, the MP refuses to even consider asking for forgiveness for its role in 1946 to destroy that church, to see bishops, priests, nuns and faithful being sent to prison, torture and Siberia - and it said nothing all that time.

To use the term "Anti-Russian" whether it is Christian here or the Administrator (who is well-meaning) or anyone, is simply a cop-out and a refusal to call a spade a spade.

Forgiveness for past wrongs must be mutual.

We are still waiting to be impressed with a Christian example coming from the Moscow Patriarchate.

I'm sorry that you had to suffer this charge, Hritzko.

I've been there and perhaps this forum is simply a place where the topic of the MP is verboten period and where Ukrainians should keep their mouths shut about the whole situation.

I, for one, will - as this whole thing gets out of hand, one way or another.

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hritzko:

Question:

"Do you believe being critical of the NAZIs is a hate campaign against all things German ?"

No, but to speak of anything German with a hateful tone in your voice would....

"If the NAZIS had invaded and occupied Sweeden for 50 years, would it be today 'anti-German' to condem them for their brutality ?"

Condem the Communist all you wan't, I do it too, I'm even against the ROC-MPs rejection of Ukraininan Autochepality!

But you seem to demonize all things Russians by claims that Christianity does not exist in Russia etc...

"If you doubt this, I suggest that you take a month tour of the lands I mentioned and make an assesment for yourself."

I've been to Russia five times, I've been several times to Estonia and Latvia, I lived for six months in Lithuania, so I too know what I'm talking about. Every Russian Orthodox church I visited was packed on Saturday evening and Sunday morning!


"Question:

Why are Ukrainians not permitted to have Ukrainian Orthodox Churches (with devine liturgy in Ukrainian) in the Russian Federation ?"

Actually, didn't the UOC-KP recieve some "catacomb churches" in Siberia under his juridiction? What juridiction does the Ukrainian church have over the terrority of the Russian Federation. Before you complain about the ROC-MP precence in Ukraine, you should sort out this situation first...

"Your statement that "neither does the Church of Kyivan Rus" is wrong."


The church of Kyivan Rus does not exist because Kyivan Rus itself does not exist. There are churches that decend from this period in time, among them the Russian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate!

"Could you imagine the Roman Catholic Church giving awards to the NAZIs for services to the people and church ?"

That's a whole another discussion, read the book "Hitler's pope"...

Christian

Hello, Christian.

THIS IS SLANDER. THAT WHOLE BOOK WAS A LOAD OF LIBELOUS BULL****.

No one dared make these accusations until long after Pius' death, and they didn't gain currency until after the deaths of his greatest WWII-era Jewish admirers.

Lt

Dear Christian,

I simply must come on to critique your choice of reading about the Papacy and the Nazis.

A much better book, written by a man who died as an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi and, unlike the author of the book you cite, actually SAW with his own eyes what the RC Church did to assist Jews (all 840,000 of them), is: The Last Three Popes and the Jews. Pinchas Lapide is the author.

The fact is that the Russian Orthodox Church has yet to acknowledge, much less apologise for, its complicity in the events of 1946 that led to the martyrdom of the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

I thank you for your support of Ukrainian Orthodox autocephaly!

God bless,

Alex

Dear Orthodox SWE,

I must concur with LT that the book that you suggest is less an accurate representation of history than a diatribe that enters the state of character assassination directed at Pius XII.

If I remember correctly, the Chief Rabbi of Rome during the occupation by the Nazi's was led to become Christian by his experience of the care for the Jews on the part of the Pope among others.
If she has not died, his daughter still receives a stipend from the Vatican which supports her at least in part.

There are many things for which this Pope has apologized. Among them is the way in which many Christians have treated the Jewish people. The historical record relates many ways and times when Christians, Orthodox and Catholic and Protestant have engaged in persecution or mistreatment of the Jews.

That is indeed another discussion. It should not be focused on Pope Pius XII. There is enough historical blame for all of our Churches to shoulder in this area , it seems to me!

It doesn't need to be manufactured.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Steve

Posted by Hritzko:

"3) If I'm guilty of slander - Sue me !
I would welcome the opportunity of going to a world court to expose the CONTINUED (remember I don't care about the past) cooperation between the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine and the Communists. There are ample examples of the communists collaborating with the Russian Orthodox Church to enrich themselves.

Canada's most prestigious national newspaper the Globe & Mail recently published an article concerning the Russian Orthodox Church and the Communist Party of Russia's participation in the trade of contraband. Interpol and other international police agencies have also put both groups on their list of major crime organizations.

Can you arrange a public trial in regards to what I, interpol, and several major and reputable newspapers have stated concerning both the Russian Orthodox Church and the communist ? I would welcome the law suit. I have several friends who work for major news groups and they would have a 'hoot' seing me on trial and would be very happy to cover the story (internationally)."

Dear Hritzko,

A question or two, if I may, with no agenda except information gathering:

Are you saying that the Russian Orthodox Church as an ecclesiastical institution is cooperating with communists in Ukraine in criminal behavior as we speak?

Is the implication that current members of the Hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church outside of Ukraine are aware of this activity and are at the least condoning it?

This is news to me.

I'd appreciate any help that you can give me by pointing me in the direction of the sources of such reports and the corroboration of the charges as those you cite above.

Thanks,

Steve

Dear Hritzko,

I think you've raised a number of topics that really have little bearing on what is being discussed here - and only add fuel to the fires.

As you yourself know, I've been there, done that - and this kind of getting one's back up against the wall isn't going to end well for anyone.

I hope you would consider withdrawing what Steve brought up and just leave it at that.

Christian too responded in defence of his Church and he has affirmed his belief in the right to autocephaly of Ukrainian Orthodoxy too.

Whether Russian Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism is working with their respective mafias or not - we cannot know and it has no bearing on our patriarchate issue.

As for dishonesty in financial matters, no one has a monopoly on that and if you think that doesn't happen in our Church - I wish you a good day!

Calm down - you were instrumental in calming me down before Christmas.

Now I can return the favour for the Feast of the Meeting!

Alex

Dear Hritzko,
Sometimes silence is the best way to express oneself for example:
Let me tell you something about the MPs in Ukraine ".........................." now let me tell you what I think about the communists that still.............................."
You see what I mean.
Lauro

Dear Alex and Ipreima,

Thank you very much for the advice. In fact you may have noticed that I did not continue the discussion in this hopeless direction.

In order to better formulate a response to his latest post I began reviewing an earlier thread posted by OrthodoxSWE (ie: Tammy's greeting to Canadians). I came accross statements he made concerning "how the whole world hated Americans", and "how cheap Americans were as compared to Sweedes when it came to foreign aid", and.... I think you get the point.

I should have ignored him then and on this thread also. You are right - it was not productive. My appologies to anyone who may have felt offended.

Hritzko

Hritzko,

I makes me sad that you feel the need to ignore me if I post a point of view contrary to yours...

Maybe I've used too strong words, but in all fairness, so have you...

I'm not sure what our discussion about foreign aid has to do with the discussion about the Ukrainian patriarchate...

You claimed that "no country in the world is more generous when it comes to foreing aid than the US".

I response I posted statistics from the OECD proving that this was not the case...I didn't say the US was "cheap".

And it is a fact that the Bush administration is very unpopular in large parts of the world because of it's foreign policy...

If we're going to able to have a discussion we must be open to point of views that are different than our owns...

Christian

Dear Friends:

The coming days will bode well or ill on the UGCC's desire (claim?) for a Kyivan Patriarchate of her own as His Eminence, Cardinal Kasper, starts his Moscow visit to be highlighted with a celebration of the Mass at the Catholic Cathedral.

The main, and crucial, item in the "hidden" agenda has come into the fore as the Patriarch of Moscow, Alexei II, might not meet the President of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity after all.

With the emphatic endorsement of Fr. Taft and the apparent intransigence of Patriarch Alexei II, the Vatican might just go through the exercise of “feeling the pulse” of the ROC, without obtaining an “official” go ahead signal, and proceed to recognize the UGCC Patriarchate.

Refer to the news item: here [ewtn.com]

The countdown begins . . .

AmdG

Dear Amado,

What was that Fr. Taft said about Moscow?

Perhaps I'm misreading it?

Could it have been a typo on EWTN's part?

"To (Rev. Father Deacon) El with Moscow" do you think?

Now, the question is really whether Father Taft is anti-Russian.

He couldn't get away with such language on this board!

Or maybe he just might swing it somehow and get it past the Administrator . . .

He is a Jesuit you know . . .

Alex

Now Alex, you best be careful...it may be best to let sleeping Administrators lie. Don

Bless, Father Don!

Yes, I've grievously offended him - and I deserve to do a lifetime of penance for it!

But I'm the one who lies like a rug . . .

Alex