www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy For easy reference, the link to the Revised Liturgy is.....

Chris,
I don't think it would be easy to move from being a Byzantine Catholic to a Roman Catholic. I also find it unlikely that anyone who left his church because of a few words difference in the Liturgy is likely to become RC.

I further find it hard to believe that the vast majority of the Ruthenian church will know or care what it going on, much less leave their church over it. All over this board are complaints that their churches are strongly Latinized, have statues, have pictures of the Sacred Heart, have rosary recitations before "Mass," have "First Communions" around age 7, don't have an icon screen, don't have the basic iconography, and overall don't know or care what their faith is. If that is really the average climate this change is coming in (like we are lead to believe here, further promulgated by your own words which imply that the people are already RC anyway), then I find it very hard to believe that the people will leave over it. Much less do I believe that people will give up on religion altogether because of the changes, and if any do I would be inclined to believe they were looking for an excuse to do so.

You can't have it both ways, complaining that the overwhelming majority of Ruthenians are really Roman Catholics in disguise (because they don't know their own faith), and then say that they will know and care enough about the liturgy revision to leave the church, and possibly any church, altogether.

Dear Wondering,

You're right, most Byzantines don't know the ins and outs of their own religion, but they do know their Liturgy. I think you can't underestimate what a change in their Liturgy will mean to them. After all, to a Byzantine or Orthodox, they're not just words, they're prayers they have been saying their whole lives. I don't know about anyone else, but I refuse to say "humankind" in my prayers, I will continue to say "mankind" no matter how many times it is printed. You just won't convince me that "humankind" makes things better.

JMTC,
Cathy

Really? The cradle Ukrainian Catholics I know all attend RCC parishes (and I live in an area within easy driving distance of multiple EC parishes). I don't know if they officially transferred or not, but it doesn't seem like it was an issue for them to go to a RCC and baptize their kids there.

Andrew

Cathy,

Didn't you start a blog a couple of months ago? What is the address?

Personally, I don't understand why Eastern Christians would move to the RCC...However, my experiences have shown me more people who have left the BCC church and gone to the RCC than have gone to our eastern orthodox bretheren (excluding major breaks (St. Alexis and Fr. Orestes))...and this, I have seen, numerous times from parishes that are not heavily latinized...I know my old parish didn't do or have any of those latinisms you named above left...although, I'm sure some of the older ladies love their rosary...

In regards to leaving over a few words difference...unfortunately, the "few words difference" for many may very well be the "straw that breaks the camel's back"...people have put up with alot...remember many of the people in the BCC either lived through or are descendents of those who saw their churches evaporate before their eyes with the parishes and faithful that returned to Orthodoxy under St. Alexis and those that returned under Fr. Orestes...those who remained BCC did so with faith in the BCC...unfortunately, many feel, betrayed, unloved, and nothing more than pawns in power struggles...people see hard working/prayerful communities being closed for no real reason...A bishop who is well past retirement who is doing more harm than good and refuses to budge...and no one who will or can do anything about it... for many, changing the way they pray (in their view/personally I have not seen anything to earth shattering at this point but being no longer BC I am not following specifics as closely as I may have in the past)...people are not stupid...the discussions that are going on about "organic development" just reeks...you can not have "organic development" when it is pushed by a few...organic means natural progression...not forced upon...

Well that's my rant for the day

Chris

The UGCC bishop here facilitated the transfer of a family who wanted to be Latin Rite, a few years ago and there was no problem. The family had last had links with the Byzantine Rite after WWII and lived in a city over 500 Kms north of where the only UGCC priest ran a parish. Having to contact a diocese they were legally attached to (many thousands of Kms to the east) but had no contact with, was becoming a problem for the family. Where they live is the centre for the local Latin Rite diocese and the 2 bishops sorted it in the best interest of all concerned. So it can happen.

Formal changes in rite do occur...although, from east to west that appears to be few and far between...the great majority of those BCs and UGCs simply begin attending the RCC and they are of the Catholic Church so there is no need to formally change rites (except for those few who really find a need to and push it)since there are no problems of reception of the Eucharist or any of the mysteries for that matter...and I know of Latin Rite priests who have discouraged it simply because it's a hassle to do so and since mysteries can be received anyway there is no need for the trouble...

JD:

your information regarding the Denver parish is incorrect. I can assure you it had nothing to do with any supposed new rubrics Bishop William allegedly mandated. The rubrics for the celebration of the Divine Liturgy within the Eparchy of Van Nuys have remained the same since the episcopacy of Bishop George (Kuzma). If the faithful did not like the "new rubrics," they would have left long ago, when the "new rubrics" were introduced by Bishop George.

This is terrible. Perhaps if we were truly Eastern, people would not only see the difference, they would feel the difference. I don't know anyone who wants to be less holy, if given the choice. I'm afraid for the parishes celebrating the beloved Red Book, anything less will be, well, perceived as less holy. When I go to a Green Book parish, it just doesn't feel right. Add in the inclusive language, and it will feel like a completely different Liturgy. Anyone who argues that point has never experienced the Red Book. So again to Fr. David, what is wrong with the Red Book?

Can someone explain the difference between the "Red Book" and the "Green Book"?

Boyarina

The "red book" contains the complete text of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom in the English translation published in 1965 for the Eparchies of Pittsburgh and Passaic.

I've never set eyes on the "green book", but I gather that there are serious omissions.

Fr. Serge

I get the feeling it's partially acculturation. The Latin Rite = being American, etc. The services are shorter and it's easier to get in and out, I've heard that as well.

I must say your user title is rather intriguing!

Andrew

I realize there are so many people we've lost due to Latinizations. Lets face it, in some areas they still kneel on Sundays <groan>, they have "holy water fonts' to dip your hands into, they have defunct communion rails, and the stations of the cross are hanging on the church walls. They never really got to experience the Byzantine Church at its fullest. Which is just a shame, shame, shame.

How, oh, how will a "NEW" Divine Liturgy save us? If we can't get these "stubborn" parishes to abandon these Latinizations, how will we get them to say a "New" Liturgy? And how do you explain to the parishes celebrating the "Red Book" that a skinnied down version of it is better for their souls?

IMHO, implempting the "Red Book" is all we need here, aside from a few minor corrections to the texts. Why is this a problem, especially when a handful of parishes are celebrating it successfully.

It just doesn't make any sense to try to reinvent the wheel!

Yes, Fr. Serge, there are serious omissions. When you experience it, after experiencing the Red Book, you wonder what happened to your Liturgy. It's like someone took a pair of scissors and cut out all of the people's parts. It doesn't have the same prayerful rhythm to it that the Red Book does. In the Green Book, when you finish the first Antiphon...and you only do one, you're speeding off to "do" something else. It reminds me of Lucy in the candy factory....everything coming at you so quickly, you have no time to actually pray.

Since the the RDL has started, the green book seems a lot better. The music was the same, and there was no inclusive language.

The red book would be two steps back. Maybe one step back would be a good start. P.S., Lucy might be more productive on the candy line!